Guest · 37:19
Impulse. And it's not just to shame ourselves like this. You know, this is like I'm shaming... I'm ashamed of myself as a fat person for being fat. That is a large part of the shame machine. That's what I talk about, sort of like the weight loss industry, you know, trying to make teenage girls feel bad about period funk and sell them a product that probably gives them a yeast infection. That is kind of the... There's sort of a standard traditional way of making someone feel ashamed so they buy your product. But then I thought to beat myself, well, actually, the biggest shame machines of all are the social media platforms because they don't shame us directly and then make us buy a product, but rather they create the perfect sort of system, the sort of sort of atmosphere so that we shame each other and thereby profit them by staying on social media fighting with each other.
Kara Swisher · 38:11
Right. Right. I was actually talking with some of this. They were talking about shame having been... Not just shame, but this kind of thing been having around. I said, it's different because, yes, of course, but it weaponizes and amplifies in a way that it's never been happened before. Are there... Can you distinguish between good shame and bad shame? Because, you know, there's been a lot of benefits from seeing a lot of these videos of police. However you feel about the police, seeing these videos or the way people are treated or having some of this stuff that's accurate go around, is that a good shame versus a bad shame?
Guest · 38:41
Yeah. I think it is. I mean, that's exactly the kind of question I was trying to answer for myself. I mean, I'd also been part of the Occupy Wall Street movement where it was shame based as is every civil rights movement. Right? Every movement is trying to hold hold authority to account. Right? Saying, hey, powers that be, you're not acting in the ways that you claim that you have ideals and norms, shame on you. And that is, of course, appropriate. So yes, I I distinguish in my book between what I call punching down shame and punching up shame. But it basically has, has to do with who has voice and who has choice. So if you shame somebody who doesn't have the choice to conform to the norm, that's that's bullying. If you, similarly, if you shame somebody who has, like, no voice, like, can't defend themselves, they can't be seen improving or being redeemed, That is also punching down. And social media almost always, not always, but almost always could, sort of conditions us to punch down.
Kara Swisher · 39:38
Mhmm. So one of the biggest news around shaming this past year involved Facebook study about teen girl self esteem and body image. In your book, you write about similar personal experience. Now a lot of people see the research isn't quite there, that that it's not just because it's, correlation isn't causation. Right? That that we're not clear, and there needs to be more research. And, of course, that's what got most of the attention because politicians can seize upon that and say, see, Facebook makes girls feel bad. I'm kind of in the middle. I think there needs to be a lot more research, including data from Facebook, where we really begin to understand if there really is causation here, and where it starts... Begins? Because women have been attacked for centuries now, and just they... It's just a new... The latest version of the tool to do so.
Guest · 40:21
Yeah. Well, two things. First that I did interview a lot of young women Mhmm. Who who absolutely described things happening to each other and to themselves that I could not have imagined when I was their age. Mhmm. And it it all had to do with Instagram. Mhmm. And sort of these body tuning apps Yeah. Anecdotally. Clear. Yeah. It is. Yeah. And to your second point, yes. I absolutely agree that we don't have scientific evidence, but I'd argue, and I'm sure you agree, that that is by construction. Right? These social media companies sit on their IP laws so that they don't have to, give access to researchers to do the to do the science, and they don't let the science happen. And there's a reason they don't let the science happen, namely because it would be bad news for them and they would be found to be liable, and they don't want that to happen. So it's pretty simple. If they had any idea, that they would be cleared by letting researchers in, I'm sure they would. Similarly, if like weight watchers worked, you know, we'd know we'd know about that. But if they don't work, they just sort of depend on the failure of their product to get repeat customers.
Kara Swisher · 41:28
Right. So when you when you think about what's happening... Because public shaming is a problem of personal behavior. Some people are better at it than others. Everyone's susceptible to it. I've watched people I have, especially around COVID stuff. There's been a lot of people I liked before who have surprised me with their ability to shame people. I'm kinda good at it. I'll admit it, but I tend to punch up rather than down, which is my preferred way of punching. But... And I do punch. There's no question about it. How do you... Is that personal behavior, or do networks... What do networks and and these these notion do to make that so when you're thinking about it? Is feed you more or let you see things? I wanna resist. But, again, last... Today, Lauren Bobert did something really awful about gay people, and I was like, you know what? Honey, no way. Not gonna let this one go by. And I thought I should let it go by, and then I thought I shouldn't. And then I was talking to a friend of mine who's trans. They're like, don't let it go by. And I'm like, okay. I won't let it go by. And you know what I mean? But at the same time, I'm not sure how much of impact it has on her. Well, none on her because she's she seems impervious.
Guest · 42:35
Right. There's a question of whether it works, and then there's a question of whether it's appropriate. And they're separate questions. And and, of course, like, there's some people that are actually psychopathic and will never feel shamed, but you can still possibly shame the people that support them. Like, look at look at what has happened in Russia, for example. But yes, I... My my my feeling... Well, I think the the most important thing to know is that it is actually... It lights up our pleasure center to shame other people. So it feels good. So it makes sense that we do it a lot, especially because we are served the exactly most outrageous, thing that happened or was said by people in a slightly different sort of inner circle on social media than we happen to be in. Number one, so it feels... Just feels good. But number two, it feels even better because our friends or whatever, our followers, champion our our shaming attempts. Right? So So it it... We are sort of conditioned to not only enjoy it, but also to do it sort of repeatedly and to feel like we're we're being supported in our doing it even when it's inappropriate. So that's the nature of social media. But, of course, I will say that when you shamed people in power for something they have a choice about and they should change and they should do better Mhmm. That's not punch... That's not inappropriate. Okay. It might not work, though.
Kara Swisher · 43:52
Think I'm being an asshole sometimes. Anyway, when you write you write, just a couple more questions. Some of the first shamers we meet are our parents. It's something I think about a lot. I had a bit of a shaming mother. How does the problem extend beyond social media? And as a mathematician, how do you quantify that?
Guest · 44:10
Well, as a mathematician and former quant, I quantify it by how much money it makes, most of the time or how much power it perpetrates... It propagates, I should say. There's a lot of shame in situations like Catholic abuse of children, right, because victims themselves were shamed as a way of avoiding, you know, changing the system itself. And that was not about money, although it ended up being about money. At the time it was just about perpetuating the power of the status quo. So that would probably be a way of quantifying it, although that's not really numbers. But you're right, shame is inherently a social thing. It's not something that you would invent if you were by yourself, but we're never by ourselves. We're in communities. And our very first community is our family. So our parents, our family are likely to be the first people that shame us. It's a very important evolutionary sort of reaction to the feeling like I have to behave or I'll be expelled from my community, and I might even die of exposure. Right? Like, historically, we would die of exposure if we were expelled. So it's really important that shame works. The problem is it's been hijacked by profiteers.
Kara Swisher · 45:19
Right. Profiteers. So last question. Who is profiting the most in the new... You call it the new... Who profits in the new age of humiliation? If you had a stack rank, a couple of people that profit, who would it be?
Guest · 45:31
Oh, I I would say Mark Zuckerberg profits the most. And and to your exact point about avoiding avoiding actual science being done on the the statistics of who gets who gets harmed by these shaming, systems that he's built. Yeah. That's because he doesn't wanna he doesn't wanna be punched up at. So good for you for doing so as much as you can. The system has to change. I will also say, by the way, that probably the biggest chain machine in our country that is sort of a physical machine is the, is the prison system. Mhmm. It is inherently shaming, and and we are so used to it that we don't really question it. But if we look at other other countries, other models, we'll realize that it doesn't have to be so undignified.
Kara Swisher · 46:16
Mhmm. So last question. What what do you do to stop this? What is there... Is there anything? People tend to like it. You know, I think it's... One of the things I do spend a lot of time is never with Mark talking about his personal stuff or his looks or things like that. I find that so distasteful, and, you know, people are always like, Cara, don't you hate his hair? I'm like, you know, back the fuck off. Don't talk... You don't need... I did it to Bill Maher. He started to insult him. Not... You know, I was like, you really shouldn't talk about looks and hair at this moment, although you have better hair. But it has hardly anything to do with your criticism. And so talk about that. Like, how do you how do you separate what are really cruel... What's cruelty from what's what's okay, I guess? There has to be some level of shame in any society.
Guest · 47:00
Oh, yeah. Yeah. Shame, we shouldn't throw it away. We should just use it carefully. So we shouldn't shame people based on things they can't actually change, like their looks. We should change we should shame people only on things that they can change, and we also have to actually understand what it means to change. Like, it's it's one thing to say go on a diet. It's another thing to, like, actually lose a 100 pounds, and that's really, really difficult, if not impossible for most people. Or to quit smoking or to stop, smoking, heroin or whatever it is. You know? Like, there's just an enormous amount of assumption on the shavers part that this is a choice when it really isn't a choice. That's on a personal level. We can just choose not to do it. We should... We absolutely must choose not to shame our children for their looks or their weight, for example. At a systemic level, to the extent that we have control over the design of systems, like whether it's a social media platform or a prison, we have to look for dignity violations, which I talk about in the book is sort of like signs, red flags that you are building in shame. You're embedding shame into your process, and we should, avoid them at all costs.
Kara Swisher · 48:03
So there is, though... My last question. There is a part of the DNA of The United States. Trump is not fresh and new. You know what I mean? Like, this is not... He's just... Or he's just, like I said previously, crime and in plain sight of stuff that people were doing. They were talking about Jared Kushner and taking the money. I was like, they all take money, but just quietly. So what... If you were to change one thing, what would it be besides human nature, which I think is impossible?
Guest · 48:28
I don't think it's possible to change human nature, but I do think we have become more punitive to your point. And, yes, we are... We've always been punitive. We've wanted to see people punished, and that is a fact about us. But I think our our thirst for vengeance and revenge and punishment has gotten, accelerated and over... Like, overdone in the age of social media, and I do think that the social media engines are responsible for that.
Kara Swisher · 48:52
Alright. The book is called the shame machine who profits in the new age of humiliation. Thank you, Kathy O'Neill.
Guest · 48:59
Thank you so much.
Kara Swisher · 49:00
Alright. We'll go on one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.
[Ad break]
— Predictions segment begins —
Kara Swisher · 50:21
Scott, let's rehear that prediction of yours in a short and sweet way.
Scott Galloway · 50:26
Until last week, the most influential media firm in the world that was in play was Twitter. And it's because it has a single class of shares and it was dramatically overvalued. That is no longer the true. It has a human walking poison pill that is erratic and the wealthiest man in the world. Nobody wants to deal with them, so the thing is no longer in play. Now the media firm that has the greatest assets in a single class of shares and is in play from day one, I. E. Now, is Warner. An activist shows up in the next twelve months with ideas on how to quote unquote add value minus all the ridiculous fucking Twitter polls.
Kara Swisher · 51:01
Alright. Those are some good predictions. I predict... I don't know. I think Elon and his friends, like Peter Thiel, are in a nasty mood, lots of money. They could drive themselves right into a wall kinda thing. I just don't... I think at some level, they don't give a fuck anymore. So I don't know. I'm... I... I'm I'm a little in the I don't know camp. But, anyway, as always, we want your questions. If you got something to ask about business, tech media, or just need some fashion advice, just reach out to us. Go to nymag.com/pivot or call 85551 The link is also in our show notes. We'll be back on Friday for more, and I will read us out, because Scott has got to go. He's got other things to do in Brazil. Scott, enjoy Sao Paulo, and and get some rest. I would really like you to get some rest. I know you're tired.
Scott Galloway · 51:45
Thanks, Gary. I appreciate the concern.
— Predictions segment ends —
Kara Swisher · 51:47
Today's show was produced by Lara Naaman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Anderdot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Mia Silverio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business as long as Scott can get himself some fucking Internet. Thanks, everybody.
