Guest · 49:10
Seeing AI show up in threat actors using them for things like phishing emails, really kinda overcoming some of the historical challenges that foreign, cyber criminals have had with, like, pouring grasp of the English language, poor syntax. So we're seeing them really clean up their act on their trade craft. Similarly, with with generative AI for video, for for, for voice, from my conversations with the intelligence community and and folks in the national security space, they are seeing threat actors, nation state actors, China, Russia, and others, that are experimenting with these tools to improve their capabilities to change and influence the public discourse. We haven't seen it so much, but we know it's out there. And and really, you only have to look at what happened in the immediate aftermath of October 7 and the Hamas attack on on Israel that... To give you a sense of just how toxic the online discourse is, particularly in social media, and everyone's rushed to, jump on the next big thing without any degree of discernment whatsoever. So I think there's a significant amount of risk. I don't know how prepared the the government is because I feel like a lot of the tools that we we have historically had in the in the tool kit have been pulled back, with a bit of a chilling effect from some of the the action out of congress, the house specifically.
Kara Swisher · 50:36
Right. Also the lawsuits.
Guest · 50:37
The lawsuits, of course. And, you know, Alex and others can talk about that at great, great length with with the chilling effect on academic research. So I I I am... I'm... You know, all that said, I'm still not clear what the specific scenarios and use cases are where you would have the most harmful effect of of AI plus disinfo, around an election. And I tend to think it would be time constrained and a very discreet event. You know, the thing that I can keep coming around to is election day, the morning of election day. There's some video that has a candidate getting assassinated or or something else that could could spin out churn and impact turnout for the election. Think everything else you could probably hit at and debunk fairly quickly. But when you... When you're talking a matter of hours, I I don't know if if we have that.
Kara Swisher · 51:28
So speed is important here because it moves so fast. Let me ask you because you were director of CISA. Now Jen Easterly is running it. How the... There have been attacks now on CISA continual, including defunding. Obviously, some Republican states pulled out of some of the some of the good things they help people do to defend election integrity. Where... What's the state of play right now from your perspective?
Guest · 51:52
Well, particularly from a cybersecurity perspective, CISA is still fully committed, as I understand it, to working with state and local election officials on protecting election systems. Right? The Russians, Iranians, Chinese coming at our election systems and the ability to vote and count and certify. As for the broader information ecosystem, information disorder, you know, since it continues to... Again, from what I understand in my conversation with election officials, election officials on both sides of the aisle continue to express concerns about disinformation related to elections. And in fact, you're seeing Republican and Democratic election officials resigning or withdrawing from office because it's just gotten so toxic. And some of these were historically those that would push big lie and stop the steal, And yet they are kind of victims of their own, bad behavior and reaping a little bit of what they sow. So I I... You know, '24, we're gonna see the playbook from '20 run again, except I think we're gonna see it sooner. We're not gonna see it after the election. In volume, we're gonna see it before the election continuing through.
Kara Swisher · 53:02
And and with president Trump back in the election probably gonna be the candidate, he... This is someone who fired you for telling the truth. You don't have to attack him in any way, but what would you expect if he prevails in terms of systems like election integrity? He's got an authoritarian bent. I think that's being kind. How... What happens to these systems that are in place to defend the integrity? Because he's he's put enough, he's thrown enough slime on it to create... Because he... And he continues to do so. How big of an effect is that?
Guest · 53:35
I think from a from an election process infrastructure perspective, this is where the founders got it right. This is where individual states are responsible for administering elections within their borders. So the chief executive cannot put their finger on the scale, at least when all the checks and balances are working. That's... It worked in '20, and I expect it to work in 2024. I do think that there are some probably concerns at the individual state levels. I I know that the independent state legislature case went before the supreme court earlier this year, and that was shot down where, you know, state legislatures could could effectively pick who wins, the the electoral college from that state. That that didn't fly in in terms of this supreme court. So at least we blunted some of those approaches. But but this is a... Again, it's a it's a... It's one of those things where democracy takes a little bit of work, if not a lot bit of work. And, there are a bunch of folks that are working to, ensure we make it through this election and the next.
Scott Galloway · 54:35
Chris, I just wanna put forward a thesis in your nullifier, validate it, or tell us what your gut is on it. If you can't beat us militarily or economically, you try and divide us or atomize us internally. And you take poorest social media networks with amoral management or a social media network that is the dominant frame through which an entire generation gets its information, and you start dialing up content that enrages young people and divides them against their parents. 50% gap in pro Israel sentiment, my generation and younger generation. And a younger generation is dominated by their frame as a as a platform controlled by the CCP or at least influenced. What is the likelihood in your view we're gonna find out that these platforms have been weaponized by bad actors to try and divide us internally? I realize that was a mouthful. Apologize.
Kara Swisher · 55:28
It's TikTok turning them into children of the corn, I think. Let's try to keep that tight tight point.
Scott Galloway · 55:35
Thanks for that.
Guest · 55:36
I I think it's unquestionable that our, you know, our enemies are using our social media platforms as their own bullhorns to both get their propaganda points out there as well as subvert stability globally. There's no question about it. And this goes to Kara's earlier point about kind of Jesus take the wheel on section two thirty and everything else back in the 90s. So we tend to be much more technical and, to your point, hard power focused on how the West dominates. But everyone else kinda looks at it from an asymmetric perspective of the... At the information ecosystem and the psychological impacts of warfare. And they're they're much, much better. They... We do not have the societal resilience in place right now. And I think we're in for a rough go of it in the in the coming years.
Kara Swisher · 56:39
Alright. On that note, you like this AI? You like this this 100 page opus.
Guest · 56:45
Look. I think it's a massive... You know, we're talking a trillion plus in in revenue generation in the coming coming years. And so you gotta... You get... You know, it's it's a big play, and it's a big response from the administration. I'm pretty excited about just in general where things go with AI. I'm not a doom and gloomer. At least, you know, Skynet's not here yet. So, you know, as long as we've got the the the rules of the road put down, then I think everybody has the opportunity to to succeed.
Kara Swisher · 57:14
Alright. Chris Krebs, thank you so much.
Guest · 57:16
Thank you.
Scott Galloway · 57:17
Thanks, Chris. Alright. Good to see you.
Kara Swisher · 57:18
Chris is really smart, don't you think, Scott? He's a very smart man.
Scott Galloway · 57:22
Yeah. Very impressive. And he got... He was awarded the moral compass merit badge, and then he fired by the Trump administration.
Kara Swisher · 57:28
I know. I know. Well, he he stood his ground. It's ridiculous, all these election denials. And they're all going to jail. And Sidney Powell, the rest of them, they're all pleading and taking deals and everything else. Looks like Chris came out on top. Anyway, if you've got a question of your own you'd like answered, send it our way. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show, or call 85551 Alright, Scott. One more quick break, and we'll be back for predictions.
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— Predictions segment begins —
Kara Swisher · 59:05
Okay, Scott. Let's hear a delicious prediction. You've been doing rather well of late.
Scott Galloway · 59:10
I don't know what the impact on the stock will be, but I think we're gonna see a narrative and some evidence that these GLP one drugs that reduce your cravings, the people on these drugs are actually consuming less social media. I don't know if it's the twenty eighty rule, but there is a a cohort of people that are on social media 24 by seven. And whether it's porn, whether it's Instagram, whether it's it's it's TikTok or Twitter, it is an addiction. And that is it gets in the way of the rest of your life. And I think we're gonna find that people on these drugs reduce their social media consumption among other addictions, and I wonder how the market is gonna react to that. So I think that's coming. I think we're gonna start to see news that amongst... You know, in addition to reducing your nail biting, your alcohol consumption, your consumption of Pringles, you're also less likely to be on Instagram fourteen hours a day. And then the other one's just a very boring one, but you're about to see, I believe, price increases across the streaming networks. When Netflix raises their prices
Kara Swisher · 1:00:15
We are seeing them, by the way. They've they've been raising.
Scott Galloway · 1:00:17
That's right. When Netflix raises its prices 15%, it gives everyone cloud cover, especially as they consolidate and have beefier offerings. You know, Disney plus, if it includes Hulu, HBO, or whatever it's called, Max. I mean, these guys are really bulking up, and the big player has given them cloud cover to increase their prices. They've... Like I said, they're doing what they had to do. They had to cut their costs and increase their prices. So price increases across Max, and, the new Disney plus are are are likely coming.
— Predictions segment ends —
Kara Swisher · 1:00:51
And now that Kara Swisher is there, it is worth it. It is worth it.
Scott Galloway · 1:00:55
Uh-huh. That's why I'm getting it, Max.
Kara Swisher · 1:00:59
Chris Wallace is my new boyfriend. Just so you know, Chris Wallace and his delightful red tie.
Scott Galloway · 1:01:05
That depresses me. But you know what I remember when I'm depressed?
Kara Swisher · 1:01:07
He has good hair. Can I just say? He has good hair.
Scott Galloway · 1:01:10
Guy looks 60 when he was 30, and now he looks 60 when he's 90. That guy has not
Kara Swisher · 1:01:14
He's fantastic looking. He is a handsome, urbane man. And he No. He doesn't. He's his dad's insane. Deeply in like with him, let me just say. He's... He wears a tie. His hair is... I'm just saying his hair.
Scott Galloway · 1:01:27
So just... I just wanna cheer you up. Do you realize, I just found this out, at the Salzburg Airport in Austria, there is a desk that is manned or staffed, excuse me, full time for people who thought they were going to Australia and errantly ended up in Austria.
Kara Swisher · 1:01:47
Not true.
Scott Galloway · 1:01:48
Not true. 100% true.
Kara Swisher · 1:01:51
It's not true.
Scott Galloway · 1:01:51
There are people every day who land at the Salzburg Airport who thought they were gonna see the Sydney Opera House.
Kara Swisher · 1:01:58
Got debunked. This will not happen on my CNN show with Chris Wallace because he likes
Scott Galloway · 1:02:04
Where's... Shrimp on the Barbie?
Kara Swisher · 1:02:06
No. No. Not true. They fact checked. AP fact checked. It is not true. It is AP. I have a story here. Thank you, Lara.
Scott Galloway · 1:02:14
I'm going with it.
Kara Swisher · 1:02:15
No Australian airport.
Scott Galloway · 1:02:17
I'm going with it.
Kara Swisher · 1:02:18
Alright. You stick with it. Makes me happy. Debunked.
Scott Galloway · 1:02:21
If that's if that's false, I don't wanna live a life of truth.
Kara Swisher · 1:02:24
You're just mad. I have other boyfriends. That's all. Listen. I don't know what to tell you. I don't know what to tell you about any of these things. Work boyfriends. Anyway, Scott, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday with more pivot. I'm excited. I've had such a nice time with you. I really did. I really like saying
Scott Galloway · 1:02:38
that to someone.
Kara Swisher · 1:02:38
And we went to Napa, and then we went to... Where's our next trip? Where's our next trip?
Scott Galloway · 1:02:43
I don't know. I... I'm... So my other family is asking that I spend some time with them. I don't know. Well, maybe over the holidays or something.
Kara Swisher · 1:02:49
Oh, probably Europe. Right? South by Southwest. Oh, yeah. We got a lot coming up. Yeah. We got a
Scott Galloway · 1:02:54
lot coming up.
Kara Swisher · 1:02:55
We're so excited. Anyway, Scott, read us out.
Scott Galloway · 1:02:58
Today's show was produced by Lara Nayman, Zoe Marcus, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Inertot, engineering this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows, Mia Silverio, and Gatti McBain. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Wait. This isn't Australia? Love that. Love that.
Kara Swisher · 1:03:21
Debunked.
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