Kara Swisher · 1:00:03
Whatsoever.
Guest · 1:00:03
Well, that's not always the case, and I would say watch my show, and you've been on my show. And I'm... When you're when you're on my show, it's certainly illuminating, so I wouldn't want people not to watch you when you appear on my show.
Speaker · 1:00:12
Thank
Guest · 1:00:12
you. But I would say this. Look. To go back to Scott's point about is it productive? I say context is everything. We have very, very productive interviews with experts and with interesting people such as yourself on my show, but then we do have the more lively, combative interview with people like John Bolton. What I would say to you, Scott, is... Let me turn it around. Let's say you were sitting with John Bolton talking about the MEK. What would you have asked that would have been illuminating that he would have engaged in good faith?
Kara Swisher · 1:00:38
Oh, good one.
Scott Galloway · 1:00:39
I would have brought up the point, and I would have said, what do you say to people who say it's, you know, hypocritical and that you're sort of bought and sold as evidenced by this? And I would have let him respond, and I probably wouldn't... Look, you have a style, and you have a show on MSNBC, and I don't, so you kind of win. But when I hear that tone, and again, it's hard because it's one clip, right? And my guess is we should look at the entire body of your work. But I find that that's easily gonna... It sounds to me like that's gonna digress into a food fight where the person doesn't trust you and just thinks you're trying to embarrass them.
Guest · 1:01:13
So here's the thing, Scott, what I would say. Number one is if you did that, he would be delighted because there's no follow-up to point out that he's lying to the viewers about when he spoke to the group. But just on the broader point
Scott Galloway · 1:01:22
Well, I think you can say I think you can say what you said. Well, that that doesn't feel accurate.
Guest · 1:01:26
So it's a tone issue. That's great. But I'll just... The wider just on the wider point, Scott, that you're making, I just wanna address this really important point. I say this in the book. Sometimes you're not trying to persuade the other person. I'm not really interested in whether John Bolton agrees with me. He's not gonna change his mind. He's John Bolton. I am interested in the audience seeing that people in power can be held to account for their lies. They can be accounted to account for what they've done. And I think that's what's been missing too much from our discourse. Sometimes you're not trying to convince the other person. You're trying to convince the third person. You say the liberal audience, the point score. I'm saying the American public that needs to hear some sharp conversations. And perhaps sometimes my tone is off. I'm only human. But I do think the style is very important to be tough. I do think that's important.
Kara Swisher · 1:02:08
Okay. So let's talk about a place where it doesn't happen in social media. Tactics do change online, and we talk about different argument styles for the left and right. There's no winning on social media. It's just one dunk after the next back and forth, and then it generates, you know, to what Scott was very quickly, which is no one's hearing a thing at all. So how does that change online, and why do you think that is?
Guest · 1:02:31
I agree with that. That... That's where I would 100% agree with Scott is that Twitter is a place where it does just descend into kind of mob mentality, dunking, erasing. It's it's really bad. And if I wasn't so addicted to it, would have probably cut myself off a long time ago.
Scott Galloway · 1:02:47
A 100%. You and me both, brother.
Kara Swisher · 1:02:50
Why haven't you both?
Guest · 1:02:51
I mean, it's it's an addiction, Kai. I don't know what to say. Mean, it's an... I'm not hiding. I I've told my family. A 100%.
Scott Galloway · 1:02:56
I can't.
Guest · 1:02:56
I I was getting palpitations when I thought that night, few months ago, it was all gonna shut down because of technical problems. It's a place I both love and hate at the same time. I do think there is some value. I wouldn't write it off completely. I'm not one of these people's like, this hell site. It has huge advantages
Kara Swisher · 1:03:12
Agree.
Guest · 1:03:13
In terms of reaching audiences I could never reach otherwise, in terms of connecting with people I could never connect with. And some debates are really interesting. Like, I'll give you the... Let's let's go back to what we started with, the lab leak debate. There are some fascinating conversations going on between scientists on Twitter right now. They're really interesting people that ten years ago, you and I would never have been able to connect. We would have to go find some boring paper they wrote on their university website to find out what they think on this issue. Right now, can see really interesting scientists who I follow unpacking that Wall Street Journal story, that Department of Energy Intelligence Assessment, and making good points. So it's out there if you want to find it and be part of those more productive conversations. For sure, we're gonna do the dunking along the way. That's human nature in an age of social media, sadly, right? Which cleverer people like yourself know... Understand much more than I do about those kind of, incentives.
Scott Galloway · 1:03:59
Where do you get inspired and find you can you can find good information?
Guest · 1:04:03
That is a great question. So good information, like I'm very critical of the American media and people know that. I've been very open in my criticism even after joining NBC. It was easy when I was on NBC. But one thing I've always said is like, I can disagree with the New York Times op ed columnist or some headline, but the investigative journalism that our media still does is the gold standard. I think some of the stuff that people at NBC News, my organization do, people at New York Times and The Washington Post, both foreign investigative journalism and domestic, I think is hugely valuable and that stuff still inspires me. I'm not an investigative journalist myself. I don't think I have the skill set or could ever be that person, but I'm great admiration to people who break these important stories and tell us what's going on behind the scenes, whether it's in China, whether it's in The United States. So that is something that inspires me. If you're talking about holding people to account the stuff I do, then, you know, unfortunately it is. I do look across the pond and I look at The UK where I do think it is slightly done a bit better and maybe something you don't like, but that's a taste opinion for me. That is the kind of stuff I enjoy watching. You know, when I when I saw Ben Shapiro, the hero of the conservative debate right, the man who puts up YouTube videos saying I've destroyed x y or z on a college campus, when he goes and gets interviewed by Andrew Neal and then gets a British... A BBC British interviewer who's a conservative who basically runs rings around him, that for me is enjoyable. I enjoy that. That's that's... I'm a nerd. I enjoy that stuff.
Kara Swisher · 1:05:22
Alright. Last question. Scott and I frequently argue. That's our entire thing. One of... I think we argue well, actually. One of the more harmless arguments is about whether my Chevy Bolt is sexy. I'd like
Speaker · 1:05:32
to tell... You to tell
Kara Swisher · 1:05:33
us who's winning that argument.
Guest · 1:05:34
Is the Chevy Bolt sexy as a car? I think I think the Chevy Bolt is as sexy as the person driving the car, and that is how I would define it.
Kara Swisher · 1:05:44
Oh, nice.
Scott Galloway · 1:05:45
Oh, no. God. Let me phrase the question.
Guest · 1:05:49
Yes. You should reframe. I say in the book. Always reframe.
Scott Galloway · 1:05:51
Am I more likely to get a random blowjob in a Tesla or a Chevy Bolt? Your turn. This
Speaker · 1:05:58
is what I have
Scott Galloway · 1:05:58
to do. He's got his head in his hands. Let's bring back John Bolton.
Guest · 1:06:02
I can't I can't... That... You've literally thrown me off that. I wasn't seeing that coming.
Scott Galloway · 1:06:06
And look at him. He's flustered. He's speechless.
Guest · 1:06:08
I didn't see that coming. In all the media interviews I've done, I didn't get that question from
Kara Swisher · 1:06:12
Scott. Stop. The flaccid penis joke always ends up there. Go ahead.
Guest · 1:06:16
What I would say to you, Scott, is is that joke contributing to a productive discussion and eliminating our lives or not, Scott? Yeah.
Scott Galloway · 1:06:25
Do you know what do know what the answer was? The answer... The right answer was no.
Guest · 1:06:29
No right answer involves Tesla as the answer is what I would say.
Scott Galloway · 1:06:32
There you go. I agree.
Kara Swisher · 1:06:33
Oh, very well done. Anyway, last question. The... What's the most important thing? Not winning every argument. What is the empathetic here at listening, I think, I suspect is what
Guest · 1:06:43
I actually think the more important than anything else to have a chapter on it is confidence building. Unless you have confidence, you can't do anything. You can't listen. You can't speak. You can't engage. You can't take a position. And we lack a lot of confidence in our societies. We defer to people who are overconfident. And I talk in the book about the need to build confidence because that's the stepping stone for everything else.
Kara Swisher · 1:07:00
Yeah. That's the explanation for Elon for sure. Anyway, the the book is win every argument, the art of debating, persuading, and public speaking. It's available now. The Mehdi Hassan show airs Sundays at 8PM eastern on MSNBC and Tuesdays on Peacock. Thank you so much, Mehdi. I really appreciate
Scott Galloway · 1:07:16
it. Nice to meet you.
Guest · 1:07:17
Thanks, guys. I appreciate it. Even the even the end question. Thanks, both.
Kara Swisher · 1:07:22
One more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.
[Ad break]
— Predictions segment begins —
Kara Swisher · 1:08:31
Okay, Scott. Let's hear some predictions.
Scott Galloway · 1:08:35
So I I think there's gonna be a fairly significant punitive award to Dominion. I'm... This Dominion versus News Corp, it's just shocking to me, and I don't think anyone's gonna be surprised where I imagine you land on this or I land on this, but you call yourself Fox News. You're the most watched news program in America. And the anchors and the CEO of the company and the founder know that they're lying, and they continue to lie in an environment where we have insurrections, in an environment where people don't trust each other. And it just is... And I was trying to get to the human element of this. You're 92 years old, which means there's like a one in three chance you're gonna die in the next twelve months. I'm just trying to get into this guy's brain. Is it because he hates the other side so much? Is it because he sees a profit motive? What is in your head when you decide to create a culture and you make the decision that we know this isn't true, but we see an opportunity to inflame our viewers that could lead to really ugly places. In addition, the board should be voted out because 61%, let's just go to straight corporate governance distinct to the ethics and my virtue signaling and disappointment. The... This company is a publicly traded company. The board is supposed to show care of duty here and protect its shareholders. 61% of the shareholders are not the Murdoch family. So let's just assume that the Murdochs have their own motives, And I'm not even
Kara Swisher · 1:10:16
gonna realize that. To point that out again, they're not the controlling shareholders in that regard.
Scott Galloway · 1:10:20
You know, so I'm not even gonna try and figure out what's going on between his ears. But 61% of the shareholders invested in an organization that claims to be fair and balanced. And veracity, even for Fox News, directly impacts shareholder value. They are probably gonna get a billion dollar plus fine here. By the way, where these companies make all of their money or most of it in terms of high margin money in an election season is from not only Republican candidates, but Democratic candidates advertised And on guess what? They were sharing information on Biden's advertising strategy with Jared Kushner. Yeah. So there are so many things distinct of the ethics that are gonna really damage the 61% of shareholders that aren't the Murdochs, that the board really should be taken into account here that you are not... You're not doing your job. You're not representing stakeholders here.
Kara Swisher · 1:11:12
Shitty managers for sure.
Scott Galloway · 1:11:14
So I think one, my prediction is, one, there's gonna be a serious award here. This is a very high hurdle to clear, and Dominion's lawyers have cleared it. I mean, they have presented so much evidence that they acted in bad faith, they knew they were spreading misinformation, they knew this would hurt dominion, they knew they were lying, they had information that showed that this was not the truth, and they decided to engage in an editorial strategy to spread these falsehoods. They will get... In my opinion, my prediction is it's gonna be a large... Not only a large monetary award, punitive award, but you're gonna see some board members rightfully be kicked out of the board here. There is no way you can be a board member of a media organization and not have hedge roll when you have this type of reckless behavior, this negligence that results in this sort of shareholder damage.
Kara Swisher · 1:12:02
I don't know. I've seen some pretty bad boards looking over at Tesla.
Scott Galloway · 1:12:04
It might be me just screaming into the wind.
Kara Swisher · 1:12:08
Yeah. It's a very high bar. I mean, it's interesting. I've read all the various and sundry, you know, debates among media lawyers, and some of them think this is a slam dunk. Others do not. It's a very high bar. We'll see. I think they'd certainly deserve it, but... And it's a jury trial, but they'll keep appealing it all over the place. The good thing about it is it'll distract them, and the rest of his life, Rupert Murdoch will be in lawsuits over this.
Scott Galloway · 1:12:32
There's going be shareholder lawsuits for
Kara Swisher · 1:12:33
the next We'll occupy him until he's in the ground, and so... Good. That's what's gonna happen. Probably one of the executives will have to go like Suzanne Scott or someone like that, but this is what they're gonna be doing the rest of their pitiful lives, so that's my feeling. So, anyway, this this this company is not backing off, FYI. They haven't, and they won't, and they shouldn't. So, anyway, great prediction. That's a really great prediction. We'll see. We wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show, or call 85551 Scott, that's the show. I like our arguing. I think it's actually okay. It's alright.
Scott Galloway · 1:13:14
That's right. If we're wrong, I don't wanna be right, Kara.
— Predictions segment ends —
Kara Swisher · 1:13:17
That's correct. And we'll be back on Tuesday for more. Will you read us out?
Scott Galloway · 1:13:22
Today's show is produced by Lara Naaman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Intertaught engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Neil Severio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. My good friend Scott Zabaugh is not feeling well. I am wishing him strength and good health.
[Ad break]
Speaker · 1:14:41
Blinds.com isn't a medication, but it can improve how you feel about your home. Customers who shop at blinds.com experience excellent customer service from consultation to installation. Side effects include increased privacy and better sleep. Talk to your partner today and see if blinds.com is right for you. Visit blinds.com now to save up to 50% off-site wide during our annual
Guest · 1:15:02
fall
Speaker · 1:15:02
blowout sale.
