Pivot · Feb 16, 2021

Lincoln Project implosion, Microsoft says Google should pay newspapers, and Friend of Pivot Adam Grant

Automatic transcript of the end of the episode, from 54:49. Speakers are labeled by software and may contain errors. Highlighted passages are Scott’s predictions.

Guest · 54:49 I I don't even know what advice to give myself for my career. Kara Swisher · 54:51 How in the world Guest · 54:52 am I gonna help a student? Scott Galloway · 54:53 Ask you because, I mean, you say that, but from an outsider standpoint, it seems to me that you have an outstanding career. You're doing something that you you appear to be enjoying. I know how much fucking cabbage you're making, boss. You are killing it. And you are Is cabbage a good thing? Cabbage a good thing. Yes. That's how young people describe Benjamins. Benjamins, cal cag, money, Adam. Anyways, you are having a lot of influence. You you look you look like you're living your best life professionally. What what advice would you give or what... Let me... I'll phrase it another way. What two or three things your fault or not your fault, that changed your professional trajectory? Guest · 55:35 Interesting. I guess I would start... This is... It's such a complicated question. I'm trying to think of a simple answer. I think the Scott Galloway · 55:45 140 of characters Done. Are last Guest · 55:47 You know what? I I can do this in in probably a third of that. I think the the the... There's really one piece of advice that I would give, which is you should listen to the advice you give to others. It's usually the advice you need to take for yourself. Mhmm. Kara Swisher · 56:01 Mhmm. Guest · 56:02 And if I can elaborate on that Kara Swisher · 56:04 Please. I... Guest · 56:06 One of one of the the hidden benefits of of having all these office hours conversations is a lot of students have come for advice over the years. And I've heard myself give a lot of advice and realized how rarely I take it. Scott Galloway · 56:17 Do what I say, not as I do. Yeah. Guest · 56:19 Exactly. If you actually do as you say, not only do you end up probably learning from your own knowledge more effectively, you also end up more motivated. There's a bunch of evidence showing that when you give advice to other people, you're persuading yourself to do the things that you're Kara Swisher · 56:33 willing do. Thing you tell them all the time? Guest · 56:36 I... I've actually stopped telling them one thing. I've regretted giving a lot of bad advice. So what I do now is I ask, why are you here? Are you here because you just want me to give a rubber stamp on your decision that you've already made? Because I'm I'm happy to Scott Galloway · 56:48 for Google. That's the one I like. Don't waste my time. You're going to work for Google. For you. Guest · 56:53 Yeah. Good luck. But... Or are you here because you're worried there are blind spots in your thinking, and you want me to challenge some of your assumptions? And if that's the case, I'm gonna argue the opposite. And then once we finish that conversation Kara Swisher · 57:05 Yeah. Guest · 57:05 Let's see where you stand. Kara Swisher · 57:06 That's interesting. I always say that to people, I'm like, you get the job, like someone was going to a newspaper. And I said, you get the job, how do you feel the next day? And every time they go, not good, I'm like, don't take the job. Scott Galloway · 57:17 You brought up something, I apologize. But this notion of virtue signaling, I think about this a lot because But I do it a there's a train of, there's a line of thinking saying that it's okay because if you get reward out of talking about good things you're doing, it will lead to doing more good things and lead other people to notice that it's good to do good things and then talk about them. Have you given any thought to virtue signaling? That's very interesting. Guest · 57:45 Yeah. I I think about it through, I guess, a complementary lens, which is social proof. So you know this well as a marketing guy, Scott. The the psychology of social proof tells us that if if nobody virtue signals, nobody else is gonna see virtue in the Scott Galloway · 57:58 signal. 100%. Guest · 58:00 And so I... This is something I worried about a lot during the the... After the George Floyd murders in the summer and the Black Lives Matter protest that followed. White people being encouraged to be completely silent. I understand that as a as a temporary symbolic act. But then if white people never speak about racism, everybody is gonna look around who's white and say, this is not my place. Mhmm. And I think we we know from the history of social movements that we need we need majority minority alliances in order to to get real attention and action on social change. And so I think that I think that every time we criticize someone for virtue signaling, the first thing we should recognize is we don't always know what they're doing behind the scenes, and they may not be broadcasting it. Second thing we should do is say, okay. Net, is it better that this person says something than nothing in terms of sending a message to all these people who think they don't have the legitimacy or the psychological standing to speak up that, hey. You know what? Racism is not an issue just for black people or people of color. It is an issue for human rights. Kara Swisher · 59:00 Yeah. Fair point. I have one last question. So sometimes these conversations just do get complicated. So at what point for thinking again do you walk away from a complicated conversation? What do you think the moments where you just say no, I'm just not gonna continue to think again? Guest · 59:17 I think where most people stop is when somebody says let's agree to disagree. Like, okay, our relationship is on the line. We don't wanna risk it anymore. Let's let's just take this issue off the table permanently. Mhmm. And I don't stop there anymore. Now when somebody says that, I say, alright, let's review the conversation. You know what? We're... We didn't agree here, and to me that means as, you know, as intelligent, reasonable people, we did something wrong. So tell me how I could have approached this conversation with more of an open mind or more of a thoughtful argument. And it doesn't it doesn't usually change the person's mind, but what I'm trying to do is stop arguing to win and start asking questions to learn. Mhmm. And sometimes I come out of that discussion then with insights on how to have a better conversation with that person another day or a better conversation with somebody else the same day. And I think that's something we should all be invested in. Kara Swisher · 1:00:06 Oh, wow. Scott, then I should stop saying, Scott, you're wrong? We're gonna be No. Guest · 1:00:10 You should still tell Scott when he's wrong. He needs it. We don't want his head to get too big. Too late, Scott Galloway · 1:00:14 my brother. Guest · 1:00:14 I I do have Kara Swisher · 1:00:15 a question for you. Scott Galloway · 1:00:16 We have to Kara Swisher · 1:00:16 wax my ears. Scott Galloway · 1:00:17 We have to wax my ears to fit me in the podcast studio. Too late. Kara Swisher · 1:00:21 Oh my god. Ladies. Give me a No. Guest · 1:00:23 No. No. No. I I do have a question. So, Karen, you can jump in on this one too because you know Scott a lot better than I do. Think this is the first time we've ever talked. Mhmm. So, Scott, I've I've enjoyed following your work over the last few years. You've just exploded onto the scene. Scott Galloway · 1:00:36 You're smart. Exploded as the operative word. Kara Swisher · 1:00:39 No. No. No. I mean, Guest · 1:00:40 you just came out of nowhere and all of sudden you're Scott Galloway · 1:00:42 everywhere. All respect, yeah, I worked my ass off for fifty years and now I'm an overnight success. But anyways, go ahead. Yes. Guest · 1:00:49 I don't mean to diminish all that. I just Scott Galloway · 1:00:50 did it. Professor Grant, You just did. Guest · 1:00:52 Well, then probably you deserved it. Scott Galloway · 1:00:54 Go ahead. Guest · 1:00:54 But Go ahead. Kara Swisher · 1:00:55 Let's agree to disagree. But go ahead. Scott Galloway · 1:00:57 You're Let's Kara Swisher · 1:00:57 not. Question. Guest · 1:00:58 Yeah. No. I I Why I Scott Galloway · 1:00:59 to ask? Kara Swisher · 1:01:00 Somebody somebody... I'll get that. I'm sorry. Scott Galloway · 1:01:02 That's my fault. Guest · 1:01:02 I'm being long winded. Go Kara Swisher · 1:01:03 ahead. Guest · 1:01:04 Yeah. It was your fault. You're right. Kara Swisher · 1:01:06 Alright. Come on, boys. Guest · 1:01:08 Anyway, I... Somebody sent me an episode the two of you did where, Scott, you said that your career goal was to be the most influential thought leader in the history of business. Scott Galloway · 1:01:16 That's right. Bet you got credit for you, Just so you know. Really? And who was I thinking about when I said that? Who was I thinking about? Kara Swisher · 1:01:23 Oh my god. Wait. Was that targeting me? Do you hear my Yes. Oh, yeah. Scott Galloway · 1:01:26 My supple yet well manicured footsteps behind you, Adam? I am so coming for your warton ass. Boom. Watch out. I am literally... I am sick of being Scottie Pippen to your Michael Jordan. Not that I feel triggered. Not that I thought about this. But, dude, I am you minus the intellect and minus the credibility distinct to that I'm coming from Kara Swisher · 1:01:47 your ass. Guest · 1:01:47 Wait a minute. Scott Galloway · 1:01:48 Yeah. Wait a minute. Kara Swisher · 1:01:49 Thing... Wait. Wait. Guest · 1:01:51 Where's the Kara Swisher · 1:01:51 plan b? Scott Galloway · 1:01:51 Yeah. No. Blah blah blah. I am coming from Guest · 1:01:54 your boss. I appreciate the backhanded compliment there. Alright. I I do I do have a question, which is Scott Galloway · 1:02:00 I'm sorry. Guest · 1:02:00 Go ahead. What... Who cares how much influence you have? Scott Galloway · 1:02:03 Like, what Kara Swisher · 1:02:03 are you influencing people to do? Guest · 1:02:05 How about a goal that's bigger than Scott Galloway? Kara Swisher · 1:02:08 Oh, no. Oh, god. This is gonna Scott Galloway · 1:02:10 be I feel ashamed. Guest · 1:02:11 I just I just wanted to know why. Like, what what are you... What what impact are you trying to have? Because you could be you could you could be the next NRA. Scott Galloway · 1:02:18 I want Right? Simply put. Simply put. I want people to respect and admire me. I wanna feel loved because in thirty years, I'm gonna be dead, and it's gonna be here in three years. I wanna feel loved and relevant. Guest · 1:02:29 And don't you want people after you're dead to love you because you made business better, not worse? Scott Galloway · 1:02:34 No. I'm too narcissistic. I wanna enjoy while I'm here. I I think That's what Kara Swisher · 1:02:38 I was afraid the answer was to. Scott Galloway · 1:02:40 I think once you're gone, you're gone. Kara Swisher · 1:02:41 You know what? He does want my Scott Galloway · 1:02:42 kids to be confident, loving citizens. That's my approach to the future. Beyond that Oh, then I can get behind. I want a Range Rover, and I wanna be fucking loved. Kara Swisher · 1:02:54 No. He does want people to do a better job at business. Guest · 1:02:57 I think he does too. I just wanted him to say it in a minute. Kara Swisher · 1:02:59 Will not say it. Otherwise, Guest · 1:03:02 if you stop there, Scott, you have a lot of fans who think that you're making you're making Gordon Gekko cool. Scott Galloway · 1:03:06 New older brother. Kara Swisher · 1:03:09 Gordon Gekko cool. Making Gordon Scott Galloway · 1:03:11 Gekko cool again? Kara Swisher · 1:03:13 Jesus. I love Adam Kable. Nice. Scott Galloway · 1:03:16 He's selling. Kara Swisher · 1:03:16 No. It's just that's just the only thing I the bottom Scott Galloway · 1:03:18 of this. Adam Grant, former friend of Scott Galloway. Former friend. Kara Swisher · 1:03:23 Can I just say can I just say you'll never catch up to him, Scott Galloway? You just totally freak a see you just now. He, like, fillet you. Scott Galloway · 1:03:32 You freak us. Ben Johnson on steroids. Kara Swisher · 1:03:34 This this this No. No. No. Scott Galloway · 1:03:36 No way you're catching this guy. Guest · 1:03:37 All joking aside, I do wanna say, Scott Galloway · 1:03:39 I think that you you genuinely care about trying Guest · 1:03:42 to nice to me. Things better. No. I believe you genuinely care about making things better, and I just want you to admit it. Oh, Kara Swisher · 1:03:49 do you, Scott? Have some feels. I Guest · 1:03:52 I I... He's in so much pain right now. Kara Swisher · 1:03:55 Look at him. It hurts him. Why why is this so hard for you? Scott Galloway · 1:03:58 Adam, look, Adam. I hate my life less and less every day, and I want I want I want that to have a positive impact on you and the rest Kara Swisher · 1:04:05 of Alright. I'll take that as progress. I'm gonna end this, whatever Liz Who, is Guest · 1:04:10 Kara, that, wait, Scott Galloway · 1:04:11 did Two you just words, two words. First word, adopt. Second word, me. Adam, how many kids do you have? You just added another kid. Kara Swisher · 1:04:19 I appreciate Adam. I appreciate you doing this, but he will, like a rubber band, return to shape very quickly. Guest · 1:04:26 I don't know. I think we can keep stretching him until he Until changes he breaks. Kara Swisher · 1:04:30 Until he breaks. Anyway, Adam, you were fantastic. Guest · 1:04:32 Thank you both. That was fun and fascinating. Kara Swisher · 1:04:34 Is called Think Again. Adam is the OG Scott Galloway · 1:04:38 Yes, of Professor Grant. Kara Swisher · 1:04:39 We really Scott Galloway · 1:04:40 appreciate I'm coming you for you, Michael Jordan. I'm coming for you. Kara Swisher · 1:04:43 Scottie Pippen gets the ball every You're once even Scottie Pippen. Scott Galloway · 1:04:46 Scottie Pippen gets the ball every once in Kara Swisher · 1:04:48 a while. No, no. Sorry. There's only one Michael Jordan. Thank you. Guest · 1:04:53 Alrighty. I just hope I'm not the Washington Wizard Michael Jordan. Thanks for passing my knees all Scott Galloway · 1:04:56 day. Well done, Adam. Bye. Guest · 1:04:57 Thanks both of you, and thanks Alright, Kara Swisher · 1:05:00 Scott. I think he bested you. One more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails. [Ad break] Kara Swisher · 1:05:35 your risk of death by about a quarter? Interested? And what if we added that this magical substance can dramatically lower your cholesterol, improve your mood, and keep your weight stable? [Ad break] Kara Swisher · 1:05:53 But what is fiber? How could one nutrient do all those amazing things? And how can you get enough? [Ad break] — Predictions segment begins — Kara Swisher · 1:06:13 Okay, Scott. Wins and fails. I feel like, Scott, that Adam won. Scott Galloway · 1:06:18 That's your win and fail. Is my win. Adam Grant failed Scott Galloway. Kara Swisher · 1:06:25 What are you doing this for Scott? Why? Why? The why of Scott. Scott Galloway · 1:06:30 Literally. I mean, let's be honest. I am a great artist, but I'm like Glenn Campbell great. He's like Elvis great. I'm like Glenn Campbell, cocaine addict, two, three hits, and then boom. Move to Marina Del Rey Kara Swisher · 1:06:42 and have a put that above. What is your wins and fails? What is your wins and fails? Scott Galloway · 1:06:48 I like my I think what's really interesting what's going on, I wouldn't know if you call it Bitcoin, but Bitcoin's about to hit $50,000 I predicted that when it was in '19, so I'm just taking I'm, of course, patting myself on the back because I'm deeply insecure, and after talking to Adam Grant, I'm now questioning everything I'm saying. This is what you're gonna see. You're gonna see, so far Square, Tesla, MicroStrategy and Twitter have announced, this is really more of a prediction, that they're converting part of their treasury to Bitcoin. You're about to see a couple 100 companies try and cast themselves under the Bitcoin light and move part of their treasury to Bitcoin. And I actually am revising my prediction. I think Bitcoin's gonna hit 100,000. And also, you know, and again, I'm pumping my own, talking my own book here, I do believe it. I think Twitter's going to $100 on an announcement from Jack Dorsey involving Bitcoin in the next sixty days. Kara Swisher · 1:07:41 All right. Wow. Oh, okay. So including, and also you're still on the subscription thing. You still think they're gonna do it or you think that's a lot of blah blah? Scott Galloway · 1:07:49 Yes, I think it's a lot of blah blah but they'll make slow progress but they finally appear to be getting serious about it. Even the acquisition of, I think it's called Revu, it's technically subscription newsletters. But all they need to do, I mean Yeah, they're for now. Kara Swisher · 1:08:04 They're groups. They're all moving in on this sort of audio space, which we'll see how many people use it. Again, the issue is where is everybody gathered and where do they gather first? There's a real first mover advantage here, but people do switch these platforms rather significantly. And I think just like interoperability of cable like streaming, you can get any information. You used to have to go to one network. I think you'll be able to operate on several different networks. People just come to Scott Galloway · 1:08:29 Yeah. Also disclosure, I own Twitter. I do not own any Bitcoin. So just Kara Swisher · 1:08:33 You know, I still do and I can't find it. Scott Galloway · 1:08:34 I know you can't find it. I love that. Kara Swisher · 1:08:36 It's close to a million. Absolutely. I will go through every single You'll find it. I'm Supposedly there's You're not something going go on vacation. Scott Galloway · 1:08:42 Supposedly there's like $50,000,000,000 worth of Bitcoin that can't be accessed because people have forgotten their pass scores. God, I can't believe Anyway, they did Kara Swisher · 1:08:49 all right, Scott, that was a fascinating show as usual. — Predictions segment ends — Scott Galloway · 1:08:52 Kara, come out of the closet. Kara Swisher · 1:08:54 I'm coming out of the closet. Be We'll back you be back for more when we tape on Thursday but then we'll be back on Friday for more. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit your question for the Pivot Podcast. We love listener questions. The link is also in our show notes. Scott, read us out. Scott Galloway · 1:09:11 Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sinanis. Ernie Endertodd engineered this episode. Thanks to Hannah Rosen and Drew Burrows. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or, frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. If you like the show, please recommend it to a friend. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Pass the ball to Scotty. He can take the shot. Pass this... Pass the ball to Scotty. Kara Swisher · 1:09:36 I would like to argue that Scott is the Dennis Rodman and not the Scottie Pippen. Guest · 1:09:49 No.