Guest · 47:18
You know, having their own points of view underlined and validated.
Kara Swisher · 47:22
Which is to me just propaganda as far as I can tell. It's essentially
Guest · 47:26
Well, mean, yes. It can be. It's certainly... I mean, I think Fox News certainly falls under that category, and they've done a tremendous amount of harm in my view. You know, it's been bad.
Scott Galloway · 47:36
So Margaret, who who or what is the role model here?
Guest · 47:39
As far as a news organization goes?
Scott Galloway · 47:41
Yeah. Yeah. But who do we model?
Guest · 47:43
You know, I think there's no perfect model. Mhmm. There's a bunch of... And and I wish I could say, okay. It's the Minneapolis Star and Tribune. Do everything like they do. Mean, I think the New York Times does a lot of things right, and they do some things wrong. Same with the Washington Post. The networks, you know, they seem to be, you know, trying to take everything down the middle because nobody wants to lose out on the biggest possible audience. So you don't... You know, that's why CNN, for example, the new boss there has gone to Republicans and said, hey, you know, you're welcome. We want you to feel welcome. And and even if you're an election denialist, you know, feel free to come and talk about other stuff. So, you know, I I don't... It's a great question, Scott. I don't really I don't really think of of a model that I that I truly believe in. I can see good stuff at various places.
Scott Galloway · 48:38
Mhmm.
Kara Swisher · 48:39
So when you think about, your life as a public editor at the New York, because you're a terrific public editor, does that need to come back, or is it just why should we navel gaze at ourselves more and more?
Guest · 48:50
Well, I mean, the the reason given for dismantling it was that, you know, social media would take care
Kara Swisher · 48:56
of that.
Guest · 48:56
There was plenty of... There... But I never bought that, Kara, because the the public editor could do something that you cannot do on on social media, which is Poor. Hear from the actual readers, go to the actual decision makers, and say, hey. Could you please explain this and what gives and why did you do this? And then synthesize that information and come up with come up with a reasoned conclusion that you then put in the very pages or on the very website where the readers who are complaining will see it. I mean, that is nothing like people spouting off on Twitter. Nothing like
Kara Swisher · 49:28
that. Yeah. No. No. No.
Guest · 49:29
I think it I think it would be a good idea for it to come back, but I don't believe it will. I just think it's it's gone. So I don't, you know, I don't worry about it.
Kara Swisher · 49:38
One of the things is I would say... You're saying lessons and worries from an ink stain life. There's a lot more worries here. You know, I was... I didn't feel great after reading it, but give give me give me your biggest worry and your biggest lesson.
Guest · 49:52
Well, you know, my biggest worry is that the American press is not up to this moment that we're experiencing.
Kara Swisher · 50:01
I was just thinking that this morning.
Guest · 50:03
You know, that we are at a we are at a hinge moment in American history where democracy is truly on the line, and the press is kind of very mired in doing things the wrong... The same way as always. And while they tinker around the edges, they're not really getting together or just in their own newsroom saying, Oh my God, we need to rise to the occasion. We cannot be asleep at the switch. Okay. So that is a very big worry. And my I guess my biggest lesson is more on the personal side that you know I think about young journalists and I think about my own career, and I think it is actually a fabulous thing for young people to do and I encourage it, And I also encourage them to try to spread their wings in a way that gives them a lot of opportunity to do different kinds of work. Like don't come out of j school and say, okay, now I would like to be a dance critic for the New York Times. You know, you have to be able to get some solid reporting in, have a varied career, and I also say try to work for somebody you respect and believe in and who you know knows how to treat you well because that is extremely important. And I think people get burned out and it it can be a very tough life, but it's also extremely rewarding and I have loved it.
Scott Galloway · 51:24
What would you ask of consumers? There's content creators and there's organizations themselves, but what would you ask for consumers of news?
Guest · 51:31
Oh, I I have a strong feeling about that, and thanks for asking. I think that consumers need to be well informed. They need to have some sense of news literacy. Like when you encounter a piece of information before you share it or even believe it, should do just a modicum of work to figure out if it's true or false. And also to stay tuned in, to not give into this idea of, oh, the news is so bad. I just wanna turn away and you know watch something on Netflix. I mean I think as American citizens we owe our country the being well informed and being engaged. So to pay attention to the news and to know what's right and what's not right and try to distinguish between the two.
Kara Swisher · 52:15
That would be great. That would be great.
Guest · 52:17
That would
Kara Swisher · 52:17
be great. That That would be nice. I do think, you know, this information desert has turned into information obesity, most of which is really empty calories.
Scott Galloway · 52:26
I
Guest · 52:26
Oh, it is.
Kara Swisher · 52:27
I am persistently, surprised by people's lack of information. Really good information.
Guest · 52:33
You know, I think that that when people find a a commentator or a reporter or columnist that they feel a connection with and believe and have reason to believe, then they can sort of make their way through the jungle a little bit better. And Yeah. And so that's why it's very important to... You know, for news organizations to have people like that who can sort of guide the way a little bit.
Kara Swisher · 52:55
Yeah. Except there's so many false prophets. It's crazy. It's crazy. It is. It's crazy. Anyway, the book is called Newsroom Confidential, Lessons and Worries from an Inkstained Life. Thank you, Margaret Sullivan.
Guest · 53:06
Thanks, Kara and Scott. Great to see you.
Scott Galloway · 53:08
Yeah. Likewise. Nice to meet you, Margaret.
Kara Swisher · 53:10
Alright, Scott. One more quick break. We'll be back for wins and fails.
[Ad break]
— Predictions segment begins —
Kara Swisher · 54:27
Okay, Scott. Let's hear some wins and sales. What do you think?
Scott Galloway · 54:30
Well, I'm gonna project, and I'm gonna predict something. I think that
Kara Swisher · 54:34
Okay.
Scott Galloway · 54:34
I love Brazil. I go there every year. I find it... Oh, yeah. I go surfing in Florinopolis, and I go to Rio De Sao Paulo. I
Kara Swisher · 54:41
love it.
Scott Galloway · 54:42
Alright. I was in Sao Paulo just a few months ago.
Kara Swisher · 54:44
Oh, wow.
Scott Galloway · 54:44
The the natural beauty of that country Yeah. They're blessed with natural resources. Arguably, one of the greatest natural resources, not only for our consumption, but for the consumption of the ecosystem, the Amazon, is a treasure that the Brazilian people, I I think, have voted that that is something worth protecting. Mhmm. And I think the joy of life that is just built into the character of Brazil. I think a lot of people... Anyone who's been to Brazil is pulling for them. Yeah. And the peaceful transfer power, I think they can be a role model for democracies. Yeah. And I think so far, they've handled it pretty well other than Bolsonaro refusing to concede. So my win is what I'm hoping will be a peaceful transfer power that inspires all of Latin America and quite frankly, unfortunately now, all of North America because we need more role models around this. Mhmm.
Kara Swisher · 55:33
Yes. I would agree. The numbers are increasing for him, by the way, but go ahead.
Scott Galloway · 55:37
My fail is, you know, I've been thinking a lot about this, And we have this cold comfort that, quote, unquote, it couldn't happen here. And there are just some very basic steps to fascism. It's it's the normalization of of the demonization of a group. I think on the left, we play an unfortunate role. We have conflated empathy. You know, neutrality in the face of evil is not neutrality. You are not showing empathy for mental illness when you kind of look away from Kanye's comments. Mhmm. You are not protecting free speech when you you are somewhat slow to totally condemn the types of comments. This stuff has to be extinguished in the crib. I mean... And it's a normalization of violence. Violence jumps mediums, and it's always the go to, the conspiracy theory that always endures, and there's always a veneer of it. When you see the beginning of the rot of a society, it's always the go to conspiracy, and that is a conspiracy against 2% of population and point 2% of the global population. It is antisemitism. And the ridiculous comments, the vile comments of QAnon or President Trump that mock people of color, That is awful and it's vile, but it takes on a different level of immediacy or threats to violence when you start saying death con and you start saying before it's too late. I think there was some layers of antisemitism around the attack on Paul Pelosi. If we don't immediately, immediately, like, put these people out of business Yeah. I'm not I'm not saying they should be arrested for saying vile things. I'm saying that every person, every media outlet, every commercial interest should say, there's just so much to lose here when you start behaving this way. Yeah. We can't have anything to do with you, full stop, regardless of how much it costs us. And then when you have the new owner of one of the most influential platforms in the world and one of his first acts on to test the owner is to spread conspiracy theory with homophobic overtones, undertones in it, you're literally taking us down the path to hell. And we're already seeing it. Fascism is a refusal to condemn violence against your enemies. It's a demonization of a group. It's anti immigrant. And then you layer in you layer in a bunch of disaffected young men who, for the first time, aren't doing as well as their parents and are looking for someone to blame. And the missing piece here that would be really fucking frightening, and it's a difference between twenties Germany when Hitler was put in jail, and then thirties Germany when he was elected chancellor is a severe economic shock. Yep. Yep. And so I really... I I think we all have a
Kara Swisher · 58:23
response the wartime loss where they were shamed too, but go ahead. There was a lot of other factors in there.
Scott Galloway · 58:29
We have... I think all of us have a responsibility to not to not look away, to not think, oh, it can't happen here, or to believe that, well, he's mentally ill. Well, I'm sure a lot of people who have created a lot of evil were mentally ill.
Kara Swisher · 58:43
Yep. Agreed.
Scott Galloway · 58:44
What Elon Musk did over the weekend is unforgivable. It's just unforgivable that he would
Kara Swisher · 58:49
You're asking me why I'm mad? Thank you.
Scott Galloway · 58:52
Anyways, my loss, my fail is I worry that there's a level of resignation or we're bereft or on the left, we think we're being empathetic to mental illness or we have some fucked up weird perverse... Perverted notion that we've gotten from the right that it's free speech to tolerate this stuff, that you're protecting free speech when you let these individuals say these vile things and not have any sort of, ramifications. So, my my fail is the slow creeping towards fascism that on the right and the left That. We seem to be comfortable with here.
Kara Swisher · 59:26
Yes. I'm not comfortable, which is why I'm mad. I have two wins. One is Scott Galloway for letting the Swisher cats stay in his apartment this weekend. Good. A great time. I left a lot of towels in the washer for you. I did not put them on. I kept the place beautifully clean.
Scott Galloway · 59:42
I don't think I've ever... I've used one towel since I've been there.
Kara Swisher · 59:45
Oh, yeah.
Scott Galloway · 59:45
I'm glad the towels are getting some good.
Kara Swisher · 59:46
We'll be coming back for more. We... The kids love that apartment. They love run... You saw that picture.
Scott Galloway · 59:50
That was a gorgeous photo.
Kara Swisher · 59:52
Gorgeous photo. They love that apartment. They love running around, so I really appreciate it.
Scott Galloway · 59:57
Daddy has a climbing wall. That's for chicks. Alex went up sensitive than I am
Guest · 1:00:01
when have
Kara Swisher · 1:00:01
a climbing climbed it for them. They loved it. All four kids were there on Saturday night, which was great. We had a great time. Amanda was helping Alex with his college, Jesse. Louie and I were watching the bear on the couch. The kids were playing around. It was really, really nice. And that's my biggest win is my, when I was getting angry about this stuff on Twitter. My son was like, what the fuck do you need that for, mom? And I was like Mhmm. You know what? Wise children I have raised. There you go. There you go. Anyway, to my nice men in my life, all of them and my lovely daughter, who is going as Anna today, in frozen and tonight as a giraffe. Everybody have a great Halloween. It's gonna rain here, unfortunately, but Clara Jo Katz is getting ready to get out there and get all the candy she can. Last year was her first big, trick or treating, and all I could see in her eyes, I have to say, was what a racket. This... You go to their house and you get shit. What a racket. And now she fully understands it and is ready to go. So I'm very happy that I'm... I've grown this little... Smart little girl who who gets it. Scott, thank you so much, and thank you to our listeners. We wanna hear from you. Send your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551 Scott, that's the show. I'm gonna take a few days off and not talk. We'll be back on Friday for more. Please read us out.
— Predictions segment ends —
Scott Galloway · 1:01:29
Well, tonight, I'm dressing up as a screwdriver, hoping that I'll turn some heads. Oh. That's a good way to call it out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Intertaught engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Mil Savario. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Brazil, congratulations on what we believe is going to be a peaceful transfer of power, one of the world's great cultures, one of the most beautiful places in the world. Go Amazon. And when I say go Amazon, I'm talking about the real fucking Amazon. Way to go, Brazil, a huge important democracy.
