[Ad break]
Scott Galloway · 19:47
Catch us every Saturday on YouTube or wherever you get your podcast.
Kara Swisher · 19:55
Okay, Scott. We're back. And actually, news breaking. The Supreme Court has ruled that Trump's tax returns may be turned over to the grand jury in the New York case. And in the case of Congress, it's... They sent it down to the lower court to figure out what to do. But it did... It essentially said he's not immune, which has been his argument. We'll get to that in a minute It'll have any implications on us, but it's an interesting story. But bad news for quarantine Gen Z and wine moms, The United States is weighing a ban of TikTok while they're over here dealing with the, taxes, the Chinese social media app. This week, secretary of state Mike Pompeo went on Fox News to tell Laura Ingram, which that's a that's a sentence, that The US is very seriously looking at the ban of the app and warned that people should only download the app if you want your private information in the hands of the Chinese Communist Party. President Trump confirmed that his administration was considering the ban and reiterated that China should be held accountable for COVID nineteen. In response, a TikTok spokesperson said, quote, the company is led by an American CEO with hundreds of employees and key leaders across safety, security, product, and public policy here in The US. Now TikTok is bulking up its lobbying team as the US government intensifies its scrutiny of the platform. Meanwhile, last week, India, TikTok's largest market, banned the app. I I don't think he can ban the app. So let's let's talk about this. What do you think? We thought that it was going to be spun off anyway and become a US company, The US arm at least. So what... Obviously, this is a political move by, know, that fatuous idiot, Mike Pompeo. But what, that's what I call them in my... At home. What do you think about this? What do you think is gonna happen? Because this is a super popular app and a very good app.
Scott Galloway · 21:29
Well, so I do think it comes down to whether or not there's evidence they're a security threat. Yeah. And whether that the information is being used and covert intelligence for for... Because the the relationship between Chinese companies and and and the ruling party there is pretty tight. Yes, 100%. Just don't... The problem is you can't trust... When the secretary of state used to come out and say, This is a national security risk, they would show up with receipts and data and you would believe them. And now you just don't, you don't, you don't know. And it might be a security threat, these actions might be warranted, or it might be just more xenophobic decisions that hurt our economy and give us no leg to stand on when we call for these markets to buy our products. So what's next? The the Chinese the Chinese played a long game.
Kara Swisher · 22:18
They
Scott Galloway · 22:18
do. They're gonna do something probably against what my guess would be against Apple. And they're gonna say, look, if you wanna play this game, we can play this game. But I I don't... At this point at this point, I'm reserving judgment because I don't know what the evidence is that they're in fact a national security threat.
Kara Swisher · 22:34
What have you found? I found that it's it's a complex issue. Just like you're saying, is a nuance and complex issue. But what the Trump administration, as usual, is doing is throwing a hammer to make music, right here. They're not. They don't know what they're... They're just doing it in order to call attention away from their own crappy things and they're not focusing in on what Facebook's doing either by the way. You know, maybe, you know, what the Facebook impact the same, you know, it's they're not the same as China obviously and this is a this is a concern. We should be concerned about all apps from a country like China obviously. But the fact of matter is there's ways to figure out if that is safe. If we do move these servers to this country, if it is a separate company, we do have an... They did hire an America... A top Disney executive as CEO. What's interesting was happening in India, I think India is doing it again today around Reddit and some others, is the... Is they banned the app. Now India has much more control over the ability. I don't think Trump has any control here that that works. And, you know, it it could be part that he's mad at the TikTok people from ruining his Tesla rally, is not even proven, or whatever. It's just... It it it... And then he can blame them for... If you notice, he put coronavirus in here. I think it'd be... I'd love to talk to Kevin Maher about their strategy here. But they certainly are gonna slap back. And it is a it is a opportunity for Instagram and Snapchat, to, to move into the space. But I gotta tell you, I I was on TikTok the other day. I use... I actually use a burner phone to use it. Let me just say it's fantastic. Like, the algorithmic, it really is You get drawn in there. And you have a burner phone. I have
Scott Galloway · 24:17
a I burner know. You're a saucy little minx
Kara Swisher · 24:21
with your burner phone. I'll call you on my burner phone sometime. But what what I think is really interesting about it is that it's really... Away from the Chinese, it's so much better than all the others. It is this algorithmic way that they bring you things you like. That's one. Two, it is so creative. People are so creative on that. Every day there's another... There was one of two couples jumping into shoes over the course of their relationship that was just wonderful. There was a kid who was flipping becoming different action stars. It's so good. It's... The people are really being very creative on it. And so that's sort of amazing. And of course, there's things that are like... There's there's now a rise in the bad parts. So the question is how well will they, you know, control say anti vax stuff, etcetera, etcetera, where it goes? Because you won't see it because it won't be... It won't come up to you. It could... There could be a whole dirty part of TikTok, whether it's anti vaxx or racism that they need to pay attention to. Because, again, you won't see it, necessarily. It's it's it's it's off in other areas. So I just it's a really complex issue, but this is typical of the Trump administration to wade in here like ham handed, politically motivated corrupt people that they are.
Scott Galloway · 25:34
It's TikTok and Huawei have become sort of the poster child for who we go after. And so at least in the cybersecurity community, supposedly, the threat that each represents to national security, they say, is... At this point is hypothetical. But at the same time Yeah. China figured out a way to kick out Facebook and Google when they wouldn't when they wouldn't, you know, when behavior even for Facebook and Google, they couldn't stomach it.
Kara Swisher · 25:58
Yeah. Agreed.
Scott Galloway · 25:59
So, you know, I think you can argue You both can really
Kara Swisher · 26:02
argue both It's just sides like the executive order around 02:30. It's ridiculous. It's like, this is not the way to do it, and it misses the opportunity to really actually do something and do nuanced important... You know, I... Listen. I give speeches about China, and every time someone from China stands up and says I'm xenophobic, because I'm like, listen. This country is really winning on lots of
Scott Galloway · 26:21
And you're like, I have a burner phone.
Kara Swisher · 26:23
I have a burner... Call me on my burner phone. No. But I I I I point out, like, because I had a really interesting talk with a... With an admiral who was talking about their cyber capabilities in the military, and it's really frightening. At the same time, what the hell? I mean, I just don't want these people. Like Like, I don't want them running the coronavirus thing. I don't want them running this. This is too important. And they'll screw it up in some way and then get a payoff from China because who knows, you know, where they're putting their their money and stuff like that. Anyway, I I... You know, again, we'll find out now that the tax returns are out. Yay. They're not gonna get out to you and I, but they're they're going to a grand jury. In any case, let's take a listener question, shall we?
Scott Galloway · 26:59
Let's do it. You've got mail.
Speaker · 27:02
Hi, Karen Scott. Thanks for taking my question. This is Alina from New York. My husband and I love listening to your podcast. I have a brother who's planning to go into NYU as an undergrad in the fall, and I'm actually an alum of NYU myself. So we're in the middle of a pandemic and clearly the traditional college experience has gone out the window. You can probably imagine my shock when I read that NYU is actually raising tuition by nearly 3% starting in the fall. What's going on? Even with rising costs associated with COVID, I find it hard to believe that there is no potential savings that could translate to lower tuition costs at colleges. Thanks and I'd love your thoughts.
Scott Galloway · 27:45
So I think that question's for you, Kara. That question's for you.
Kara Swisher · 27:48
I have this question for you. What the hell with the 3% rise? Secondly, They haven't said anything. Like, nobody knows. And now Harvard announced they would not be inviting students back to campus, I think, or they're doing it remotely. And some campuses are having remote.
Scott Galloway · 28:01
Harvard's going all remote.
Kara Swisher · 28:02
Yeah. But some people are having students on campus Yep. But doing it remotely to protect the professors, which is kind of interesting. Yep. There's all kinds of ways. There's, like, juniors and juniors and freshmen show up, and then seniors and sophomores. I don't know how they decide that. Yep. I think it should be juniors and soft... Freshmen and sophomore, whatever. In any case, there's all kinds of things. What is going on there at NYU given I am also... Thank you so much for noting this. What what do you think is gonna happen? You... This is your bailiwick. This is your wheelhouse.
Scott Galloway · 28:32
So... And to be clear, I don't speak for NYU, and I'm not privy to these decisions. Although I did have a call with this incredibly impressive guy, chancellor Block, who's the chancellor of the university that receives the most applications in the world. Do you know what university that is, Kara?
Kara Swisher · 28:45
What? What? Tell me.
Scott Galloway · 28:46
UCLA. She's more absent. Okay. So first off, to answer her direct question, what are we doing regarding raising the prices 3%? Simple. We're continuing to prey on the hopes and dreams of middle class households. Yeah. Whereas a conflation of self aggrandizement and arrogance has led us to believe that our lack of productivity, our lack of accountability, and an inability to recognize basic concepts like ROI and cost management has resulted in more debt than than credit card debt. And it's it's absolutely at this point, it is it is morally wrong. So we continue to do that, but that's nothing different. Let's talk about the pandemic. The switch part of the bait and switch is now full underway, and that is now... First universities were making this bold stride... Strident statement saying we look forward to welcoming you back. It's our national obligation, said the Brown president, which is Latin for parents, send in your deposits now. Because if you don't send in your deposits that we have expected and received exactly the same amount, plus 4%, every year for the last forty years, we'll be in financial crisis because our costs are fixed and we can't variabilize them down. So it was a lot of consensual hallucination between the finance departments Uh-huh. The presidents and parents that fall was actually gonna happen. Well well, spoiler alert, and I hate to tell you this, and I've been saying it for two months
Kara Swisher · 30:03
Mhmm.
Scott Galloway · 30:04
There will be no in person classes. We are not going to stick a bunch of average age 55 tenured professors in rooms that with windows that don't open with people from the four corners of the earth such that we could infect them and send them back. The super spreaders in The US right now, theoretically, are far right Republican governors and university presidents who are even even entertaining the notion that we're gonna bring people to areas of concentration, young people who are super spreaders, who have proven to be super spreaders, and then expect that they will they will maintain these ridiculous protocols that we're we're doing all these task forces on the moment they leave campus.
Kara Swisher · 30:41
I agree.
[Ad break]
Scott Galloway · 30:43
So what... So we're moving to the switch phase. We'll say, well, we didn't realize what was going on, so we're gonna continue to have some classes in person, and they call them studios and labs. Mhmm. You know, if you're if you're majoring in the tuba or you're you're in pottery or something or you're in chemistry lab, the reality is they will that will not happen either. All of this has been a big wrap.
Kara Swisher · 31:04
Why don't
Scott Galloway · 31:04
they just To get parents to send them their money.
Kara Swisher · 31:06
It's like, I just... You know,
Scott Galloway · 31:08
does quite a business.
Kara Swisher · 31:08
I know. This is... It opens the possibility to students who couldn't afford room and board. Now would you send your student to... Now would NYU do something that may... You don't have any knowledge about it, like have the students be there and then take remote classes? Is
Scott Galloway · 31:21
there That's any point to this is headed. Is that they're trying to say, alright. We're we're not going... You you can still have the campus college experience, and you, young man and family or young woman and family, have to make a decision around the risks you're willing to take. And maybe we reconfigure the dorms. Maybe we have the freshman class show up for fall and the sophomore class show up for the spring semester. But you try and distance off campus, and you can do your remote learning. Yeah. On campus. Not in the class, and have sort of the of the college experience. Yeah. And still take your classes, and maybe still go to the lawn, which has been taped off for distancing. Right. But here's the problem, Kara, and I hate to say this out loud.
Kara Swisher · 31:59
There are
Scott Galloway · 31:59
so many scenarios that could just go really wrong. Happens in small college campuses if their health care systems get overwhelmed?
Kara Swisher · 32:05
Yeah. Also, was thinking that... And then there's no cafeteria ability or things like that or whatever. You go
Scott Galloway · 32:11
to college to not distance.
Kara Swisher · 32:12
Yes, exactly.
Scott Galloway · 32:13
That's why you go to college. You go to college to not distance. And the notion that we don't aren't setting ourselves up for these little mini Wuhan's all over the most charming little It's cities in just no one wants to be honest about the fact that just as sports has taken a hit, just as movie Yeah. Theaters
Kara Swisher · 32:28
closing have down taken sports, for sure.
Scott Galloway · 32:29
You are going to have to close these campuses down. Enough already. It's just... We all want our 19 year olds out of our basement. All the nineteens in the world feel cheated. But here's the bottom line. Campuses cannot be the new super spreaders. And it's it's I
Kara Swisher · 32:44
like that. That's like... I thought campuses cannot be the new super spreaders. I feel like that's a t shirt we should have.
Scott Galloway · 32:50
And by the way, if we had spent a fraction of the time focused on how to decrease the delta between offline and online learning through an amalgam of small and big tech, as we have spent on these ridiculous task forces trying to come up with protocols to give ourselves the illusion of security and safety, we would have already massively improved the online experience, and we would have come out of this process True. In fighting shape. But you know what's happening?
Kara Swisher · 33:12
What?
Scott Galloway · 33:12
This is going have so many implications. So my class is usually 160 kids, since it's online since the kids are angry because they're spending $7,000 take 12 Zoom classes, they've said, Scott, and I'm bragging right now, can you expand your enrollment? So great. So I'm teaching 400 kids. You're not only going to have the twentyeighty rule, where 20% of the professors are educating 80%. You're going to have the fiveninety rule at most campuses. And then all of a sudden, the administration and alumni and donors are gonna go, why do we have 190 faculty when 11 of you are educating 80% of the students? So this is what is happening here? Nothing but delay in obfuscation and arm folding from people who realize the currency of power and lack of accountability, specifically tenured professors and bloated administrators, are getting in the way of progress here.
Kara Swisher · 33:57
I agree with you. Although I really would like my son to play beer pong. Frankly, I should have made him apply to It's tragedy. To Sarban.
Scott Galloway · 34:02
But he'll be back.
Kara Swisher · 34:03
Yes. He'll be back. He'll be abusing alcohol,
Scott Galloway · 34:06
getting his heart broken in no time.
Kara Swisher · 34:07
He has a nice girlfriend. Listen to me. I should have made him go to the Sorbonne. That's it. But we couldn't get to France either. I'd have to sneak him into France. Must call me
Scott Galloway · 34:15
on your burner phone number
Kara Swisher · 34:16
I in should have made him... My... One of my nephews went to, Saint Andrews. Like, I should have made them do that, but here we are. But Harvard and MIT are suing the Trump administration for banning foreign students from taking online courses this fall. This visa thing, what if they... What is... They have to move to another school if they can't live there. It's so strange. What what do you make of that?
Scott Galloway · 34:38
This is problematic. So this is my prediction and this is the alright.
Kara Swisher · 34:41
We're gonna get predictions later, but give me your thoughts.
Scott Galloway · 34:44
Well, is the most underreported story in America right now because if you think about this, people say, well, it's a xenophobic... First off, just how ridiculous is it? Okay. You can have a student visa, but if you get some of it online, if you use email, that's fine. But if that email starts including online courses and we have an opportunity to send you home in some sort of xenophobic trope, okay, all online classes, you're now an illegal... I mean, it just... This decision makes absolutely no sense. We know why they're doing this, Kara.
Kara Swisher · 35:11
Steven Miller is what No. Is
Scott Galloway · 35:14
The kind of free free opportunity to be racist with purchase is just a gift here. Yeah. It's just sort of an added bonus for them, a chance to be more bigoted. The reason they are doing this, and it has not been reported, I don't understand why, is that if you were to look at if you were to look at the bluest states in the union, the ones that produce the most harmful intellectual property, the ones that most... Have the most reason to debate, demonstrating what a a travesty and the amount of of disease, death, and disability, the incompetence the administration has levied upon our union, that the bluest states in the nation are college towns.
Kara Swisher · 35:53
Yeah.
Scott Galloway · 35:54
And they are neutering college towns because here's the dirty at NYU, 28% of our students are international. They pay full freight. They're about 50% of our cash flow. Yeah. Donald Trump and his administration have gone into the neon bluest regions in America, and he has neutered them. He is going after their cash flow. This is like salt on steroids where everyone says salt is nothing but retribution against high tax blue states. Yeah. This is that times 10.
Kara Swisher · 36:21
Don't have much time. What do they get... Why do this when they have so little time? It's all gonna be turned over. It's all gonna be turned back. Like, you know, the first... If Biden wins, the... About half of his administration will be like turning over things like this or like getting... Like, we're rejoining who? We're redoing this. We're redoing that. I mean, really. So why do it? Cutting off
Scott Galloway · 36:43
your kids' credit cards. This is this is this is real. This... The international students... At every university, another game, we talk about... We we brag about that we have students represented on each state, and we have students from 28 countries. And we say we have international students for diversity. That's bullshit. International students are some remarkable ones, but for the most part, they're the children of rich kids or exceptional kids, usually from India. Mhmm. And but we say it's for diversity, but but they don't... They pay full freight. They're really... They're typically the only ones on campus that are paying absolute 100% tuition. Everybody else at school like Princeton, the actual cost that students pay has actually gone down the last twenty years because of financial aid. Right. The international students very rarely get any sort of financial aid unless they're they're here for PhDs or something like that.
Kara Swisher · 37:28
Right.
Scott Galloway · 37:28
So this is going... You know, you say follow the money. This is the Trump administration financially neutering the most liberal towns in America.
Kara Swisher · 37:37
This is fascinating. This is fascinating. Fascinating. This is true. You're right. And... But I don't think it's gonna last. That's the only thing that's
Scott Galloway · 37:42
gonna watch it. You think it's gonna
Kara Swisher · 37:43
It does. It's gonna get turned over. It'll... You know, they'll just drop it. Everything's gonna be dropped, all this stuff. And then Bill Barr is gonna try to join a corporation and nobody will have him. And, you know, a couple of these people will say, we didn't like him. If he... This is if he loses. Right? So Mhmm. And they'll all go, oh, we really were against him. And then either they'll... We'll forgive them or we'll be like, go fuck yourself, that kind of thing. That's really how it's gonna go. But they're gonna overturn quite a few of these things, I would say. That's what I would say would happen. You know, and then, you know, and then president Kamala Harris is gonna take everybody down. Take them down. That's what she's gonna do.
Scott Galloway · 38:17
Wait. So give me your rant on this Harper's letter on how and
Kara Swisher · 38:20
how we do that during predictions, and then we will. We shall. Alright, Scott. One more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Hi, everyone. This is Kara Swisher.
Scott Galloway · 38:37
And I'm Scott Galloway.
Kara Swisher · 38:38
And we wanna tell you about Pivot, our twice weekly podcast.
Scott Galloway · 38:41
That's right, Kara. What a thrill. It's a chance for us to break down all the big things happening in tech, business, and politics.
[Ad break]
Kara Swisher · 38:48
in check so people can make it through each episode, whether it's digging into constant changes in
[Ad break]
Kara Swisher · 38:55
whatever the fuck Elon is doing. We're here to give
[Ad break]
Scott Galloway · 38:59
Every Tuesday and Friday morning, we drop a new episode about some of the major stories of the moment.
Kara Swisher · 39:05
And Scott is a prediction machine gazing into his crystal ball to tell you about where it's all heading.
Scott Galloway · 39:09
That's right.
[Ad break]
Kara Swisher · 39:14
can follow us on your favorite podcast app to get new episodes every week. Boom. Okay, Scott. I have to admit it. You're on fire these days. You're very smart. I can't I can't every day. I just literally am like,
Scott Galloway · 39:31
burn our phone for the girl.
Kara Swisher · 39:32
I I honestly go I go, oh, he was right again.
Scott Galloway · 39:35
I'm Better lucky to be good here.
— Predictions segment begins —
Kara Swisher · 39:37
Happy for the show. And then at the same time, I'm like, oh, he's gonna be insufferable. So nonetheless, you write about Lemonade. You were right about Twitter. You've you've just been right a lot. You've been quite a lot. And I want a prediction from you, and we will talk at the end about the this Harper's situation. I will read you some tweets that I tweeted. But go ahead. Tell me your prediction.
Scott Galloway · 39:57
My prediction is twofold. We've already mentioned it. We're gonna find out that the amount of funding or bailout money that well funded venture backed and PE backed startups is going to be just frightening. And it's gonna be, I think, one of the scandals coming out of this. So I think that that's coming. And the second is we're gonna see small college towns across America, which have for the last forty years been these incredibly affluent, robust, you know, centers of cultural enrichment, but also quite frankly, many economies because they have... To a certain extent, there's been a transfer of wealth from middle class households vis a vis onerous, tuition to these small college towns, and they've benefited that from forty years. And if this Trump ruling around not allowing or forcing international students to go home stands, you could have recessions or deep... Deeper recessions in almost every, college town in America. So I think people are gonna start to focus on that. Yeah. And I think there's gonna be a ton of articles listing all the people who took PPP money who, quite frankly, just didn't need it.
Kara Swisher · 41:09
Yeah. Yeah. But then what? And then what? Because a lot of them aren't gonna give it back. They're just like, no. I'm not giving it back. Like, some of the congresspeople had a bunch. There's a whole bunch of congresspeople. A lot of Jared Kushner friends, Kanye West. There was, like, all kinds of peoples taking the money. It's really crazy.
Scott Galloway · 41:25
Yeah. Yeezy. Right?
Kara Swisher · 41:26
Yeah. It was just like... And who's running for... We didn't even get to that. Let's just not. The birthday party. The birthday party. I just feel... Okay. Sure. Sure. Why not? Why not? He gave a really unusual interview with Forbes, but, but, you know, he's a very talented entrepreneur and artist. That's... Will say that. That's what I will say. But this is...
Scott Galloway · 41:47
Well, it's it's funny till it isn't. I mean,
Kara Swisher · 41:49
I'm Elon Elon's involved. I don't think you should make... May... Maybe he's serious. I just feel like this is too serious at times.
Scott Galloway · 41:55
But, frankly, he's more qualified to run than the president...
Kara Swisher · 41:57
Than the current president. That is fair. That is fair. That's not... That's a low bar, my friend. Alright. We'll finish up talking about the Harper's thing. A large group, I think about 200 of, writers... Well known writers and academics, wrote a letter on justice and open debate in Harper's Magazine, which they were whinging about cancel culture. And I'm gonna read you a couple of tweets I put up. Yeah. This is a guy named, Jamal Jordan who goes under, at lost black boy on Twitter. He goes, over 200 people, many of them writers, signed the Harper's letter yet no one seemed to call out excessive use of the passive voice or lack of specific examples. Maybe I'm the dumb one. They did prove one thing. You can't argue with the piece of writing. It doesn't actually say anything. So that was one, what I thought was really funny. I think there were just a lot of really good criticisms that I don't think it was pile on. I think it was really really smart about what the problem was, which is, first of all, you had different people, some of whom were hypocritical in their... In in saying what they were saying. You know what I mean? Like, they have done the same thing themselves. That's one issue, but that's besides the point. I think it's this idea that... Here's another one from Jessica Valenti. It's fascinating how many people are threatened by the idea that saying dumb shit has consequences. Like, where did you grow, grow up that you could just run your mouth off, which I thought I thought was funny. You know, I think there was... There's a lot a lot to that. And Mike Masnik really wrote a really great piece that I recommend to everyone about it. So give me your take because I thought it was a dumb essay and the the the the false equivalence between Trump does this, but it... It's not even the same. Trump's activities really hurt people. This is just, it just... The whole thing was badly done by good... Some people who are very, very good writers. So I I... I'm I'm coming down there. That's where I come down. Mhmm. And I also think people who don't... Didn't get to speak speaking up, this was a group that gets to speak all the time. And so, anyway, go ahead. Go ahead. Make your choice.
Scott Galloway · 43:52
A lot of good points. I think the article... The letter maybe was was not that elegant. I think it's a difficult letter to write, but, I'll just speak someone who spent twenty years on a college campus. I think college campuses have made a lot of progress. I think they're much more what I'll call tolerant of people who don't look like them or empathetic regarding people who don't look like us or like each But it seems like we've... Have no tolerance for people who don't think like us. There are... There's very few conservative voices on campus, and now we have gotten to a point where respected academics, whether it's Steven Pinker Well put out data
Kara Swisher · 44:29
I'm I'm not gonna go with you.
Scott Galloway · 44:31
They wanna shape an argument. But the thing that makes our arguments stronger is we battle test them, and we can appreciate other, at least at the dialogue rather than saying, oh, Steven Pinker put out something that offends us. Let's ruin his career.
Kara Swisher · 44:43
No. But it's not ruin his career. No. His career doesn't get ruined. None of these people have their career ruined. It's... Don't like fired everywhere. Oh, some some of the stuff. For some of the stuff Your
Scott Galloway · 44:51
editor was fired.
Kara Swisher · 44:52
That is not... You see, again, you're like... You're you're putting it down to a reductive. There was a long... It was... It went on a lot longer than you think. He's a great guy, but made a lot of mistakes. It wasn't just one. And that's just not true. They would like it to be this narrative, it's just not true. These people... Listen, this is another thing from him. The idea there's some narrowing ideas is nonsense. These people are getting criticized for their bad ideas and their response to play victim and pretend the space in which they can speak has narrowed. They're full of shit. Spare me the subs, right? Go down the list of signatories. Many are incredibly famous or regularly published in top publication, often appear on TV. They have no fear of their livelihoods and trust me, whatever contrarian ideas they claim, they're not able to share. They are in fact being shared widely. There are all sorts of ways in which they get to express their viewpoints and they do. Getting criticized for the ideas is called counterspeech. The thing that they claim to be supporting, they're just playing victim. They don't like counterspeech.
Scott Galloway · 45:41
It is. Is. There's there's no doubt there should be con... There's a difference between consequences when you say something stupid or wrong, and then there's a culture that's decided that if you don't sign up for my orthodoxy and turn it into my dogma, you're putting your career at risk. And the result is a lack of thoughtful data driven debate around key issues that means a lot of the things that that we want to see happen will not happen because there isn't an open I honest debate about
Kara Swisher · 46:08
think this is hardly the biggest issue of our day, And I think that Mike has it right that these people have spent their lives protected in ivory towers, is he right, now facing real free speech from people from outside their privileged bubble and are freaking the fuck out about it. And I said, so stop pretending consequences and counter speech are anti speech. You're not actually brave truth tellers you wanna be. You're coming off as privileged elitists who are being challenged by ideas for the first time. The signatories are so quick to clutch pearls about people actually calling out bad ideas as bad and saying that maybe institutions who have editorial discretion should be a bit more discretionary. They think they're facing for the speech or somehow anti free speech. It's not. I think Gia Tolentino writes about this intelligently, like, talking... What what it does is you create a bad argument, then you cherry pick the insults, and then say you're a victim. It's just... It it... I I think you're Yeah.
Scott Galloway · 46:53
But you're complaining victimization with people with a dialogue that has been squelched, at least on university campuses that we could all benefit from.
Kara Swisher · 46:59
These people never shut up. It's just it's just... I... To me, it's... It... That they... And it's
Scott Galloway · 47:03
not true. There are lot of people who feel as if they can't address certain issues right now.
Kara Swisher · 47:07
The Trump playbook is exactly this. They are they are on the Mark Zuckerberg side of the equation of this thing. And so
Scott Galloway · 47:13
You feel that they're crying victim?
Kara Swisher · 47:14
I think they're not just crying victim. It's that every speech doesn't get to be said. It's... This is this is this fallacy. And there's something coming called counterspeech from groups of people who've been excluded, have been excluded from discussion. What... They just don't like that they are finally... Like, when they have a bad idea, they're... Look at... Whatever you think of any of these writers, some of them have really bad takes and they should get... None of them are suffering for it very much. And you may think that in college campuses. I understand that you can't do it to one, but the abuses that went on in college campuses by professors for so long, enough. Like, you're getting... At some point, you pay for what, you know, the life you lead as James Baldwin said. I've quoted him recently.
Scott Galloway · 47:55
Yeah. We are producing a generation of guardians of gotcha No. Who are who are saying to people who quite frankly probably share more about their beliefs than they would imagine, you're holding the gun wrong. You're fighting the enemy wrong. You're helping wrong. And that's that's that's permission or that's reason for you to be drawn and quartered and ostracized.
Kara Swisher · 48:14
There's no drawing and quartering. These are the richest crap. People. They're not. They're just
Scott Galloway · 48:19
for air. Half the people to come on my podcast give me a list of things they can't talk about because they're worried that they're gonna use the wrong verb, and that then their faculty is gonna come after them.
Kara Swisher · 48:28
I don't know. I... This... You know, the fact... The stuff around JK wrong, she's getting attacked because she's saying things that are that are trash, by the way. And she should be called trash if that's what people think, and she should take it. And that's and she could... And she continues to persist in saying it and continues to have a platform. I think all... This is not our biggest problem in this country, and it's it's being cynically used by the Trump administration in a way that it plays right into their thing. And that's my problem. It's like, why don't we have a real discussion about this rather than have a bunch of overprivileged elitists tell us that they're that they're hurt by people not liking them? Like, I just it feels like it feels incredibly tone deaf at a time when people really do need to speak and and and hear things that they may not like. I We're
Scott Galloway · 49:15
shooting ourselves in the foot. No. The far left, left orthodoxy turned into dogma, turns off moderates, and it... We... We're we're no better than the far right.
Kara Swisher · 49:24
No. That is... Oh, come on. Come on. The stuff that the Trump administration is... There's people jailed in that chance.
Scott Galloway · 49:30
Where's my burner phone?
Kara Swisher · 49:31
There... People are actually getting killed for... And and getting impacted because of the stuff that the far right has been yanking out. The far left, maybe they're annoying, but there's nobody... Like, of the protesters that died, it was all protesters
Scott Galloway · 49:44
so many unrelated things here.
Kara Swisher · 49:47
I think they I think they're... Some of them are very annoying. And I've had this debate with lots of friends of mine. You know, I think a lot of them are ridiculous. I think they over they overstep. And at the same time, it's it's a conversation that has been long in coming from people who've been disenfranchised.
Scott Galloway · 50:01
The one key question here is, what were you and Stephanie Rule doing without me?
Kara Swisher · 50:07
How can that
Scott Galloway · 50:08
Where would Stephanie be without me?
Kara Swisher · 50:10
Where would Stephanie? She come down right in the middle, I think, probably. We need to get... Let's get Stephanie back.
Scott Galloway · 50:15
Let's get her back. Stephanie is with me on this one. I think Stephanie is my... A proud sister in arms of the raging moderates, and we're making a comeback here, Cara. There is a place for us in this world.
Kara Swisher · 50:25
It's not raging moderates. It's not. It's just not. I just feel like this particular... First of all, read the text. Boneheading. There we go. Just read the actual essay. It's so full of the passive voice and its butts. There's so many word butts in it. It's ridiculous. It's a bad
Scott Galloway · 50:39
Don't question my progressive bona fides. I watch Christian Amanpour. And then when I go home to watch myself on Christian Amanpour, I use duck duck go to find video.
Kara Swisher · 50:47
Show? She's nice. She's a nice
Scott Galloway · 50:49
lady. I was on with her show with the guy, the handsome dreamy guy. I think his name's Bari or sorry. He's like this totally cool down PBS kinda handsome Indian guy. He's very, very cool.
Kara Swisher · 50:58
I I love Christiane. She's great. I did a great interview with her at South by Southwest. She's just great.
Scott Galloway · 51:02
She seems like someone to me that would go on Facebook's board and then leave after two months. She's a... She's an eight or nine leaker on
Kara Swisher · 51:08
Facebook's board. Bring bring out then bring out the new... The memos we finally need. It... Not that it would matter. It wouldn't matter. I'm just telling you, being on the side of Mark Zuckerberg is not the place to be. That's all I gotta tell you. Just not history.
Scott Galloway · 51:21
History Do you a is prediction for us, Kara?
Kara Swisher · 51:23
I don't have any. I predict that I don't know what I'm gonna do about my son going to NYU, you gave me no solace. That's all I have to say. No Sorry about that. And you know what? Him infecting you, he... You would infect him. Let's just make that clear. He's been so careful, and you've traveled all over the gods green earth all over the place.
— Predictions segment ends —
Scott Galloway · 51:41
Yeah. Hey. Look. I get I get I get almost infected by Kimberly Defoyle.
Kara Swisher · 51:45
Oh, yeah. You were. You were near her. I'm just saying my son wears a mask. He wants to get tested. He's been very careful. So I'm worried about
Scott Galloway · 51:52
Have you been tested? I got tested.
Kara Swisher · 51:54
Should he take your course now that you're opening it? Yeah. I'm getting tested with him. He wants to
Scott Galloway · 51:57
tested. Undergrads can take only second year MBAs.
Kara Swisher · 52:00
Oh, you won't let him in? Second year MBAs? That's the only people I can go? Can't he audit?
Scott Galloway · 52:04
Not very well connected. I know. Of course.
Kara Swisher · 52:08
He loves you, you know, unfortunately. He loves you. He's like, I love you. Is it
Scott Galloway · 52:12
my predictions or my wavy
Kara Swisher · 52:13
blond beard? So when we're listening to you in the car sometimes, he's like, that Scott is really smart. You're making some nice
Scott Galloway · 52:18
to me today. I don't...
Kara Swisher · 52:19
I don't care what's going on here today. Don't worry. It's... I'm coming back because you're completely an idiot on this Harper's List. Oh god. You whiny
Scott Galloway · 52:24
whiny your idiot. But I'm your idiot.
Kara Swisher · 52:27
Whiny man.
Scott Galloway · 52:28
I'm your idiot. I'm half of the partnership. It's a
Kara Swisher · 52:30
100 did the douche club ad. You you know what I mean? Like Douche house. White douche house ad. Whatever. You're interesting. And because you're a white
Scott Galloway · 52:38
man in a vicious Bringing voice to the overheard. Douche house.
Kara Swisher · 52:42
Yes. You're such a dick. I think
Scott Galloway · 52:43
I got some... I think we're onto something there.
Kara Swisher · 52:45
Alright, Scott. Gotta go. What are you doing for the weekend? MacBook?
Scott Galloway · 52:49
The same thing I do every weekend. Time with the boys. We're gonna head back, head back to New York. So, yeah, good stuff. All good stuff.
Kara Swisher · 52:57
Yeah. I'm gonna spend time with Stanley Steamer because my cat peed on the couch. Anyway,
Scott Galloway · 53:02
that's my guess that. That would not have been my first
Kara Swisher · 53:06
guess that people didn't know. I gave Eric, Johnson, who is the producer of Ricoh Decode, my red chair, my famous red chair, that I bought from Steelcase. Many many people
Scott Galloway · 53:14
How PBS of you. What a I know.
Kara Swisher · 53:16
An interesting It's very expensive chair.
Scott Galloway · 53:17
What an interesting yet boring moment. I wish Let
Kara Swisher · 53:20
me just tell you. And then I... He he has this big long red beard now because he looks like he's like fighting for the Union Army. But I said I gave my chair to the to the lead singer from Fish. And then Brooke Hammerling, who's been on our show said
Scott Galloway · 53:31
Love Brooke.
Kara Swisher · 53:32
You don't even know Fish. And I was like, I Trey Anastasia and I shared a carpool in middle school. Thank you. And that there's a piece of information you didn't know. Me and Trey Anastasia were carpoolers together.
Scott Galloway · 53:44
I did not know that.
Kara Swisher · 53:45
Yeah, you didn't.
Scott Galloway · 53:46
That's another... In a long series of incredibly weak flexes. But Very. Very. Seriously. Well done.
Kara Swisher · 53:51
Cat P and Trey Anastasia from FISH.
Scott Galloway · 53:53
Well done.
Kara Swisher · 53:54
Today. Anyway, don't forget if there's a story in the news and you're curious about it and wanna hear our opinion, email us at pivot@voxmedia.com to be featured on the shows. Okay. We're gonna get out of here now. Let me read these credits. Today's show was produced by Rebecca Cenanes. Fernando Finite engineered this episode. Eric Anderson is Pivot's executive producer. Special thanks to Eric Johnson who worked with me on Recode Decode, who is working on this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or, frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. If you liked our show, please recommend it to a friend. Thanks for listening to Pivot from Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.
