Scott Galloway · 53:14
Anymore spaces that are either anti vaxx or election lies or... It tends to go towards the aggrieved more than
Guest · 53:21
Mhmm.
Scott Galloway · 53:22
The let's all get together and talk about air fryers, which, again, is my biggest interest these days.
Guest · 53:27
Why is it... Why are you so into air fryers? Why are you so into air fryers?
Scott Galloway · 53:31
They're cool. They are. Just don't even speak to me about it. They're cool. They've pleased me. They pleased me on... I don't know why. I... I'm not gonna explain it to you. It's one of my passions. Anyway
Guest · 53:39
I mean, I like an air fryer. I look for air fryer recipes, but it's definitely not my go to.
Scott Galloway · 53:45
Gall doesn't care about any this. What I'm wondering is You
Guest · 53:47
don't have
Scott Galloway · 53:47
to tend towards the negative? He might. Why does it tend toward the negative and not the enjoyment of air fryers, for example? And it does to an extent, by the way.
Guest · 53:56
It does. So I'm actually... I'm really interested in this question, sort of what the Internet was for and and sort of... And how things got skewed
Scott Galloway · 54:04
into direction. Nice.
Guest · 54:05
It was nice. I I actually have a I have a chapter in the book that's sort of, you know, about cyberspace as we called it back then. And I focused on on The Well, which I'm sure you I feel like you must be familiar with. But The Well was like pre Internet, you know, in the eighties. It was this group of a few thousand people, I think, you know, mostly in the Bay Area, and it was truly the first sort of online community. You know, there had been sort of message boards beforehand for very, you know, kind of geeky Star Trek message boards, you know, but this was, like, a really interesting bunch of intelligent people all communicating in this new disembodied way. And and and what was interesting about it is, you know, the people who ran the well were were hippies. I mean, they were people who had all lived on communes in the seventies, and they felt they were bringing to this community a knowledge of what it means to create community and what guardrails you need to have up to keep things productive, how you pull people aside and say, Look, things are getting intense here, let's cool down. And they did all of that.
Scott Galloway · 55:14
It was also about how they lived it was out of the whole Earth catalog. It was about build your own entire home, that kind
Guest · 55:20
of They believed in the power of tools. So what was interesting to me in delving into The Well was that there was this idealism that emerged from The Well, that the Internet could be this place that had all of these private spaces where people of common interest could come together. But the thing... And, you know, Silicon Valley has picked up that ideology and that romanticism in a big way. Right? We still sort of... You know, if you listen to Mark Zuckerberg, he still talks about, you know, what he produces as being a place to make connections and a place but the part that got lost, that got kind of forgotten was, like, day two, they had a troll. You know? Like, they they had... They needed bouncers in cyberspace, you know, they... And they understood this. And that element of it, the the need for a kind of structure to make sure that the conversation that was gonna happen, these spaces that were gonna exist for people actually proved to be creative and productive for them, that part of it sort of got lost somewhere along the capitalist route towards creating bigger and bigger platforms that were gonna keep people on for longer and longer. And I do think that that sort of seed is still there, what you're talking about, this place where time and space doesn't exist. You can't sort of connect with people in new and interesting ways. I think it's just right now, we've lost a bit of self awareness about where that can happen. I think that's the interjection of
Scott Galloway · 56:51
the The metaverse.
Guest · 56:53
So what's your takeaway at the end of all this?
Guest · 56:56
My takeaway is that my book is focused on how new ideas enter into the world and the fact that the public sphere that we inhabit today is one that is not particularly good for generating It's not those new Twitchy
Scott Galloway · 57:18
and reductive.
Guest · 57:19
Twitchy and reductive. We know this. This is not new. We know this in almost every other realm of our life. We know this. Right? We've... Even in the time that I've been working on this book, I feel like there's been such a more growing awareness of how how it's affecting us, how it's affecting my kids. But yet when it comes to the building of movements, you know, to change happening and social and political change happening in the world, I think we still hold on to this kind of romantic idea that all you need is a hashtag to go viral and, like, everything will change. And, I mean, I'm I'm being a little flip, but I do think a lot of people kind of still have that sense of it. And what I would like people to do to the extent that I have any recommendations for coming out of this book, because it's essentially a book of stories that I hope people will sort of learn from, but is is that there are other modes of of communicating and that we should look for them. And it's not that we can't find them online, but we need to maybe stop vilifying the kind of value of seclusion a little bit, you know, and understand that that's important too. Tissue. Exactly.
Scott Galloway · 58:21
And we need connective tissue. It can't be through a TikTok dance video. Yep. Anyway. Alright. Gal, thank you so much. It's a terrific book. I love all the historical stuff, and I indeed was using the well, and it was quite a place, I have say. It was irritating too on some level.
Guest · 58:35
I'm sure it was.
Scott Galloway · 58:36
It was... But it was in a good way. You sort of... You know, it was it was a different time and a different place in terms of what the Internet would become, and it did not become that. Yeah. The the... It became a capitalist engine Yeah. Of of of financial growth. Anyway, Gaul, I... We recommend I recommend you reading this book. It's called, the quiet before on unexpected origins of radical ideas. Thank you so much.
Guest · 58:58
Thank you. Thank you for having me.
Scott Galloway · 59:00
Okay, Stephanie. Aside from insulting my air fryer love, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.
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— Predictions segment begins —
Scott Galloway · 1:00:46
Okay, Stephanie. Predictions. Here's a prediction. Kanye West is now, putting up a new music video where he decapitates and buries Pete Davidson, is apparently dating his now ex wife.
Guest · 1:00:59
Do you say apparently because you want us to act like you don't pay attention? They are dating.
Scott Galloway · 1:01:05
They are dating. I don't know. I never know if it's real. I don't know if JLo and Ben are going... I don't... Okay. Thank you. I'm glad you're friends with them, but in any case, I don't know. God save me from the crash just so I can beat Pete Davidson's ass is his, is his lyric. He's been harassing him online for weeks now. I feel like a restraining order is coming. That's my prediction. A restraining order. So Wow. It's just appalling what he's doing. I'm sorry.
Guest · 1:01:28
It's gross. It's absolut. But, you know, we look at it like it's, oh, it's entertainment. What they're experiencing is absolute harassment, and it's Mhmm. A restraining order should be coming. I would say my
Scott Galloway · 1:01:42
He had... But the problem is he has lesions of followers just like Elon Musk does. And when they unleash this, it's a real issue.
Guest · 1:01:49
That is a 100% true. My prediction, things are going to get worse in Ukraine, much worse before they get better. And while it's amazing and inspirational to look at all of these everyday citizens now, you know, fighting to defend their country, they're going to get exhausted. And we don't know what... And I don't mean nuclear power, but I just mean firepower, manpower, what what, Putin has. Right? You've got people putting their lives on the line in Ukraine, and I'm I'm I'm I'm very worried and concerned about how much worse it's gonna get. And from a... My positive, I'm happy to see it.
Scott Galloway · 1:02:29
Is there a better? You said before it gets better. What's better?
Guest · 1:02:31
I mean, before they say, right? So people are saying, Listen, Putin's humiliated right now. You know, he's backed into a corner. You're right. He's humiliated and backed into a corner. So what does an irrational animal do? Double down and get worse. No. There's often these thoughts like, listen. Putin's on his own. He's screwed. I I I think even if he is on his own and screwed, he will do horrible, heinous, ridiculous things that will cost innocent people their lives.
Scott Galloway · 1:02:58
It's a little it's a little... You know, Trump, same way. Like, a lot of this stuff that's coming out just today, he's still here. Still here. He's in trouble.
Guest · 1:03:07
But I... I'm I'm using the word brave, but I don't mean to. Brave isn't the word. It's it's like Trump. Putin is like Trump in the way he conducts himself, but he's, far more fearless than Trump. Trump wouldn't actually do physical... I think Trump is more cowardly than Putin is.
Scott Galloway · 1:03:28
Yeah. That's a very good... He... This guy is brutal.
Guest · 1:03:30
Brutal. Yes.
Scott Galloway · 1:03:31
Brutal. The word you're looking for.
Guest · 1:03:34
Idea. Right? People are saying, well, you know, the January 6 committee now thinks Trump, may be liable, you know, may be a criminal. Listen. That would be great if that's the case. Like, wake me up when that happens. This is a guy who doesn't use email, doesn't use text. He rolls like a mob boss who never ever ever puts his fingerprints on anything. So I'm hard pressed to believe that they're gonna get him. When they do, great. My win, I'm really happy for kid... For school kids that so many across the country are gonna get to play sports and go to school without masks on in a week. But I am sad for people like your family who get easily forgotten who have kids under the age of five. Right? People like mine who are celebrating going, oh my gosh. My family is about to have the biggest win. My sons cannot wait to play basketball with no mask and my daughter and go to school smiling. Win for us. We're forgetting what a dangerous loss it is for families like yours. That's what I'm
Scott Galloway · 1:04:26
worried about. And immunocompromised... I'm more concerned with immunocompromised people. I was... They'd just taken masks off in DC, and I was in a store, and someone was clearly immunocompromised. And, you know, I put my mask right on, and I... Because she... This woman was wearing you've got to be aware of kids. And I know you're sick of COVID. I know you're sick of masks. Most of the lecturing about kids and masks comes from people that don't have kids. But but it... Which is like, I don't think
[Ad break]
Guest · 1:04:56
Ron DeSantis was... That...
Scott Galloway · 1:04:58
He was kind of joking with them. I thought that was taking out context. Wasn't it? Yesterday Alright.
Guest · 1:05:02
I an indoor event
Scott Galloway · 1:05:03
I saw it.
Guest · 1:05:04
People who are arguing against masks aren't saying that masks are dangerous. They're saying it's freedom of choice. The government shouldn't tell you you have to wear a mask. You have to vaccinate. And he walks in and screams at teenage boys to take their masks off. And then he proceeds to say, I can't believe these Ukrainians are out there fighting. That's so weird. You wouldn't see that happen in France, which is so Yeah. I know. It's a reminder that so many of these lawmakers are so hot.
[Ad break]
Scott Galloway · 1:05:30
Yale and Harvard. Harvard Law School.
Guest · 1:05:32
He knows what happened in France in World War two. The sick thing is is that he's banking on the fact that you and I don't, and that's what's gross.
Scott Galloway · 1:05:41
Yes. Yes. Yeah. He's a smarter Trump in a lot of ways. What's really interesting about that is I... You know, it's true. A lot of these people who don't wanna wear masks, they certainly have been very aggressive in telling people not to wear
Guest · 1:05:53
But that's the thing. What business is it of anybody else's?
Scott Galloway · 1:05:56
Nobody's business. We're lucky to have these vaccines to allow us to move through this. But I'll tell you, let people do what they want and have their degree of comfort and stop stop it. You've already been assholes on one side. You don't need to do it on on the other.
Guest · 1:06:11
How about be kind, full stop?
Scott Galloway · 1:06:13
Be kind. That's a very... Be kind to Stephanie and Kara. Okay. We'll take a listener question in our next episode. What do you want us to know? Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit your question for us, or call 85551 The link is in our show notes. Okay, Stephanie. That's the show. Thank you so much. I appreciate it. I know you're busy and tired. This has been a tough... It's not a tough week, but you've had, like, a big crash course in anchoring, I think. I know you've experienced anchor.
— Predictions segment ends —
Guest · 1:06:41
You know, women... Every time a woman... Every time we have another child, we gain a superpower that our human bodies don't require sleep. We're just smiling zombies.
Scott Galloway · 1:06:50
Then I am Captain Marvel in that case, but I... Your show is terrific. We watch it every night. Sadly, the golden child who did like watching your show in the morning cannot watch it now, because she is asleep.
Guest · 1:07:02
Well, she may start waking up at 11PM because she wants to have a cocktail and tune in. You never know.
Scott Galloway · 1:07:06
I think not. I think she's watching Madrigals and the family Madrigal, and that's it. That's her whole media diet right now. Anyway, it's a great show. Everybody should watch it. The eleventh hour. Is it with Stephanie Rules? It is. Called the eleventh hour. It is. But it's the eleventh hour is Stephanie call
Guest · 1:07:21
it eleventh hour with Brian Williams anymore, just slight change.
Scott Galloway · 1:07:24
I think he should have kept that.
Guest · 1:07:25
Yeah. Just that would
Guest · 1:07:25
have been a
Scott Galloway · 1:07:26
good thing. So can you start using those folksy metaphors that he did? You know, like a like a two headed chicken and a, you know, whatever.
Guest · 1:07:32
You know, he's got his own. I'm I'm gonna I'm gonna use my own. Brian had his own very special style that I wouldn't dare
Scott Galloway · 1:07:38
emulate or try to. Alright. Okay. Well, I like those folks. I miss those. Anyway, Stephanie Rules. She's a big star at MSNBC, and she still manages to come on the show. I'm gonna read us out. Today's show was produced by Lara Naaman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Anderdutt engineered this episode. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Thank you, Stephanie.
