Kara Swisher · 41:47
Earlier this month and online harassment can get worse. Researchers warn that AI chatbots could help bad actors scale up phishing attacks and harassment campaigns. Elon's removing all the all the safety switches everywhere, including technologically speaking. So what is the long term Finnish misinformation classes are a good model? There's a great story in the New York Times today about that. Also TikTok, which is under siege in The US and across the world actually for its links to China, is sharing details of a company reorg with US lawmakers in hopes that transparency will show off its independence from the Chinese owner ByteDance and ally fears of data sharing. You know, when you get, when you start talking about the thing you're talking about, I agree with you. They've been lazy and sloppy and made a mess. That said, so has Fox News in our country, for example. Just let me give you just a weird anecdotal example is I put my mom in a... In independent living. It's really great. She's really... She's she's she's decided to stay herself. But, you know, it's hard to get anyone to do that. Mhmm. But the... She's not watching as much Fox News because it just doesn't work there as well. And maybe she'll start doing it. She was watching CBS News. We are on the same page factually again, and it's fantastic. And, you know, in a lot better news, she's a lot better mood. She's gonna kill me when I do this because she's like, stop talking about me on your Pivot Show. And she likes Scott better than me, but, but it's really interesting to watch the removal of propaganda from her because that's what it is. It's hateful, toxic propaganda and the mood change. She may not agree with me because she's still reading the New York Post and the Daily Mail, etcetera like that. But she certainly, it's certainly, I I I had written a column about this around COVID when she did this. There are other avenues of information that can be just as bad and can make a very clear link because right now Rupert Murdoch yesterday underwent... He was he was deposed in the Dominion case where everyone at Fox News So are that was I think far more damaging and then what do you... Maybe they'll do a perp walk.
Scott Galloway · 43:45
Yeah. But but that that's the right comparison. Let's talk about Dominion voting machines in a deep fake video of Nancy Pelosi seeming as if she's inebriated. When Fox talks about Dominion voting machines irregularity, they said these voting machines had been weaponized by Hugo Chavez in Venezuela, ended up not true at all. And there's laws that if a traditional media company says stuff that's slanderous and has economic harm in a company, they can be sued in court. And Rupert Marder gets hauled into court. And by the way, every anchor on Fox the next week said, this was factually incorrect and we shouldn't have reported it. The amount of emails and messages from your mom or other people about Dominion's voting irregularities on Facebook. What happened at Fox is a dumpster fire. The nuclear mushroom cloud of misinformation around dominion on Facebook. But guess what? Because of Section two thirty, they're not subject to any sort of liability.
Speaker · 44:43
Yes, we agree.
Scott Galloway · 44:44
A falsehood on Fox ties its shoes before a falsehood on Meta gets ripped around the world. We have decided for some reason, nascent technologies deserve some sort of legal protection. You want to run, you want to on the side of being more promiscuous with your regulation. These companies are now the most valuable companies in the world and can be the most damaging. So I can't for the life of me understand why they wouldn't be subject to the same obligations as traditional media. I
Kara Swisher · 45:11
do agree on this. They remind me more of cigarette companies and how we're gonna handle them. That sounds right. Know, rather that's just what Marc Benioff had told me. Two two quick things then we'll get to wins and fails because we gotta wrap up and get some questions from the audience. They're sharing details. Do you... Is there hopes for that given the The US is creating all kinds of committees in Congress?
Scott Galloway · 45:30
Sharing details, say more?
— Predictions segment begins —
Kara Swisher · 45:31
Sharing details. They're trying to be much more transparent about how they will keep TikTok because a lot of states
Scott Galloway · 45:36
Oh TikTok. Yeah, so again back to my predictions. I think TikTok is gonna be in the next trillion dollar company. And TikTok is hands down the most ascended tech company in history. Not the most ascended media company, the most ascended tech, possibly the most ascended company in history. It got to a 100,000,000 users. I got a fifth of the time of Instagram, which used to be number one. And I also think that if TikTok doesn't spend ownership and assets to Western democracies, it should be banned full stop. This thing is so addictive. If my son, if my 12 year old had his druthers, he would put on diapers, go into his room, lay on his side, so he wouldn't have to take bathroom breaks and just watch TikTok for seventy two hours straight.
Kara Swisher · 46:13
Nice.
Scott Galloway · 46:14
I would like to do the same thing. I think it's an amazing product, but here's the thing. And we keep talking about it and I won't won't be redundant here. I think it's a propaganda tool. I think it's the ultimate weapon. Look at the equivalent of TikTok in China. It's the spinach version. They talk about people in Olympic training. They don't let anyone talk about politics or systemic racism or income inequality. No updates on the Uighurs on Chinese TikTok. Anyways, but here's the thing. The reason why I think it's gonna be a trillion dollars is because there's so much money involved that the people who have a stake in this are gonna figure out a way to put pressure on the owners of TikTok and say, okay, do we want this to go, do we want it to be worth 50,000,000,000 or 1,000,000,000,000? So $950,000,000,000 is a lot of incentives for a lot of different parties I to figure it
Kara Swisher · 47:03
I don't
Scott Galloway · 47:03
think You don't think they're going to agree?
Kara Swisher · 47:04
I don't. They're going to try to do something where Oracle runs this and this is protected and The US will probably because we're a bunch of wimps sign off on it. I think, there are some very active people in Congress that may not let it go. I mean, Republicans and Democrats. So we'll see where it goes.
Scott Galloway · 47:20
So much money.
Kara Swisher · 47:21
I get it, but I think the Chinese find this to be a valuable property and don't want to spin it off in any way. And I don't think the owner or the people running it have any power.
Scott Galloway · 47:29
But they're faced with it being shut down. And this is the same reason why Xi Jinping has basically said, they've taken a message, a note out of The US playbook. They've said, Okay, these tech billionaires are now more powerful than governments. We don't like that. So we're going to disappear them.
Kara Swisher · 47:44
And we're
Scott Galloway · 47:45
going bring them aligned. Now they've cut off their fingers but I don't think they want to cut off their arms. Because if they don't continue to bring tens of millions of people into the middle class, they're going have a revolution.
Kara Swisher · 47:54
Yes, they could ruin this product if they, it gets banned in The US for sure.
Scott Galloway · 47:58
I think
Kara Swisher · 47:58
that's And I don't know where it is in Europe but it's definitely that will have a rolling effect. And it's entirely possible that it could happen. It could be banned in The US. It's a winning political thing for a lot of people, although it makes teenagers mad. They don't vote. Anyway, let's let's hear some wins and fails now. We're gonna wrap up and then we'll have questions from you the
Scott Galloway · 48:16
wins and fails?
Kara Swisher · 48:16
I have a lot of them. I have a lot of them. Let me start. The fail, the Missouri State Legislature Dress Code, fuck them. That's pretty much what I
Scott Galloway · 48:24
was that saying about what
Kara Swisher · 48:25
you're talking about? They passed a, I don't know what it even is, law for women can't show their arms with any kind of clothing. They've got to wear blazers. It's essentially, it's great.
Scott Galloway · 48:38
Is strange because if you're an anchor in traditional media in the West, you're a woman, you have to show your Right.
Kara Swisher · 48:43
So you can't show your arms. It's all kinds of stuff. It's really quite maddening.
Scott Galloway · 48:47
Why does Andrew Rassore can get sleeves? I don't know. You
Kara Swisher · 48:50
have to be covered up. It's very, it has a Taliban y feel. So it's really strange. I think it's repulsive and disgusting. I just can't believe it. I can't believe it. It's Missouri, but it's part of the ongoing march of
Scott Galloway · 49:03
It all comes down to time zones. In Germany, it's about eight p. M. Here it's about seven p. M. And in Missouri, it's about nineteen fifty three.
Kara Swisher · 49:09
Yes, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So it's and it only applies to the women of the legislature. I don't think there's lot of men wearing sleeveless sheaths. But nonetheless, they should. It looks good. It looks good. It looked good on Harry Styles for sure. I was just in the Castro of San Francisco and I was so relieved to see all the naked people. I can't even tell you. They look good.
Scott Galloway · 49:26
It was the wrong people that are naked, isn't
Kara Swisher · 49:28
it? No. It? No. No, not in the Castro.
Scott Galloway · 49:32
I remember when I was in high school, we used to sneak down to Malibu to this place that had a nude beach and be like, he should not be naked. Just shouldn't be naked. Anyways, sorry.
Kara Swisher · 49:43
Okay. All right. How did that get to that from a very anti female situation? But okay, fine. People are ugly. Okay, great. I think the win is Sweden's, this thing in Sweden, the enormous positive of earth minerals, really interesting. This is something that China's been eating up all across the world. Rare earths are crucial components for electric vehicles and wind turbines. China dominates this trade, so discovery could have a big impact unless they come and buy it up for European energy independence. Really important minerals mining and refining could take a decade or more, but we need them sooner because global EV sales surged last year to 10% of all vehicles, mostly in Europe and China. The US is starting to keep up, but it's still way behind. Tesla still leads, but it's losing, going to be losing market share. And it has been, it's been growing, and the whole market's been growing, which is good for everybody, but it's mostly here in Europe and China, the two big bright spots. So this is I think a great thing. This is the rare earth metals. It's good to find them elsewhere. I'd like to find more of them.
Scott Galloway · 50:43
Nice.
Kara Swisher · 50:43
Around the globe. Those are my wins and fails, what are yours?
Scott Galloway · 50:47
So my fail is the state of Florida, which seems to be home to people into crypto, seniors and domestic terrorists. I was heartened to see that the Supreme Court in Brazil is considering charges against Bolsonaro, who said, Okay, you you sow doubt about the sanctity of these elections. Your staff seems to have organized this. And if democracies start deciding, okay, let's see how big a riot we can spin up. That could be a real threat to the entire West. So I like the fact, I think the fact that we're housed, I hope he's extradited.
Kara Swisher · 51:23
And also the military was a little, there's a lot of reporting about how the military protected some of the rioters.
Scott Galloway · 51:29
And they're talking about, they've already arrested I think over 1,000 people. They're basically doing what we should be doing in The US and that is holding domestic terrorists accountable for their actions. So, and by the way, they weren't hunting anybody that went when the place was closed. It makes it almost look like a peaceful protest compared to what happened in DC. And yet the Supreme Court in Brazil has decided to live up to the letter of the law as opposed to The US. So anyways, I don't think everyone talks about moving on and coming together. I don't think we can do that until we decide that domestic terrorists are punished and liable for their actions, including the former president of The United States. The win, and this is highly emotionally manipulative and pandering. My win is Britain deciding to send 14 Challenger tanks to Ukraine. I think it's, we have been remiss in the West to send like visible hardware. We send stuff you don't think about, missile guidance systems, right? Or handheld missile systems. And Britain is sending 14 tanks. And these things are incredibly intimidating, incredibly successful. It's essentially the most heavily armored piece of equipment that's on a battlefield with a cannon on it. And they're sending 14 and it's a first. And this is the emotionally manipulative part. Does anyone know why my mom kept going to the Elephant And Castle Tube Station in 1940? To sleep there. During the Blitz, my mom and her family slept in a tube station here. And I always talk about the difference between happiness is understanding that a lot of your success is not your fault, having some, recognizing your blessings, being grateful, paying it forward. But it's also recognizing that just how fucking lucky you are. I'm here now because the British who said, okay, they were offered an incredible deal in 'thirty nine. You keep the empire, we're gonna keep Europe, everything's fine, you're super unpopular. It was incredibly tempting to just sign some sort of agreement. And they said, no. And the British again, have a very wonderful habit of saying to Tyrannus, murderers, Fuck you. And I think it's wonderful. And you're gonna see more Western allies move in with hard armor as they talk about the spring offensive. But again, I think there's a lot of parallels with World War II here. We are supplying a lot of natural gas just as we supplied frigates and P-51s and Tommy guns. We're providing a lot of the resources and a lot of the capital. But the Brits again show the leadership. We're not gonna be cowed by someone who has nuclear weapons in the face of tyranny. So my win is that again, the British people have decided, you know what? At the end of the day, you got to call a tyrant out for what he is and we're going to take the risks. This is huge risk for Britain, but they're taking a leadership position. And by the way, it's an individual who runs your government, from an outsider, I like this guy, son of immigrants, that's who should be making decisions, not the son of fucking monarchies. Who cares? Let them make that go to Soho House, get a Porsche.
Kara Swisher · 54:39
He's not precisely making decisions about anything except what he wants to wear that day, but go ahead. He has no power. Harry has no power.
Scott Galloway · 54:47
Harry has no
Kara Swisher · 54:47
power.
Scott Galloway · 54:48
Point is, democracies have people, son of immigrants. I think that's a wonderful story. I think anyways, I'll go back to where I started. I think Britain's showing continued leadership in the face of tyranny and not taking the easy way out as evidenced by sending tanks. I'm hoping you watch in the next two, three weeks, we're going to see Germany send some of their amazing leopard tanks. And it's going to make a difference.
Kara Swisher · 55:11
All right. Okay.
— Predictions segment ends —
[Ad break]
Kara Swisher · 56:28
Scott, thank you. Let's take some questions from the audience.
Speaker · 56:32
Yeah. Hi. My name is Paul. Paul. I wanted to, I know, challenge something you said. Yours about accountability. Yep. Surely... I mean, you're gonna moan Harry and Meghan. Isn't it they're holding their feet to the fire? Appreciate I'm a white guy. I can't really talk about racism. But is it... Are they not holding their feet to the fire with some pretty egregious things that have gone on? Would that sort of change your view in terms of, yeah, okay. It's a $100,000,000, but doesn't what they're doing shine a light on some things that are pretty wrong?
Scott Galloway · 57:02
I guess it goes to their state of mind. I think that's a fair view. Your view is that they see this as an opportunity to be more transparent and improve the monarchy. I think that's a valid viewpoint. I would argue they're just going for $100,000,000. And that essentially to summarize this, it's like, we don't like fame. Look at me. So I don't, I just don't believe them that their intentions, but I think you're seeing that glass is half full and I see it as half empty, but I think it's a valid point.
Kara Swisher · 57:36
Yep, it is. It's to me, it's a PR tit for tat is what's happening here. They've just gotten the upper hand for now. And you know, I think the press does go along and there's a great love of the monarchy among certain groups of press. And it reminds you of all the celebrity stuff that can be very deforming for society. I do think that. Although I think they're perfectly welcome to do it. Anyway, next question.
Speaker · 57:59
Hi, I'm Flora.
Scott Galloway · 58:00
I've got
Speaker · 58:01
a question about internet advertising. So you've obviously been quite vocal about Post, which is based on microtransactions. And there's plenty of research out there to question whether Internet advertising is actually value for money, and there's problems about lack of transparency in the digital ad market. Given that most of the Internet is funded by digital advertising
Kara Swisher · 58:21
Yes, it is.
Speaker · 58:21
What do you think the future for the funding of the internet looks like? Is it gonna continue being based on advertising? Are microtransactions gonna be more popular or is it just gonna be like billionaires subsidizing it? Would probably be my question.
Kara Swisher · 58:35
Okay. I don't think it's an eitheror on that thing. I do think the internet missed the opportunity to do much more around subscriptions and you pay for something and it's worth it and therefore it's a cleaner place or whatever. It's just like anything else. That's a problem because not everyone can afford it. This is the argument that a lot of tech people make. That said, it essentially creates a situation where rich people get to live in the clean place and poor people get to live in the dirty place and dirty, nasty, toxic y place. And so, there should have been more attention to figuring out a way to do loyalty or usage or looking at things like there was never any creativity because they could just slap this stuff up and use your data that you gave them willingly without any government intervention about what they were doing. So why wouldn't they, right? Why wouldn't they take advantage of this? So you do start to see the effectiveness going down like rather severely. And that's kind of an interesting issue. If you look on Twitter right now, what the advertising is, it's really quite, it's like, I mean cable, late night cable has better advertising and they do not have good advertising than Twitter has right now. You could see where it goes and there's all these scams and different things like that. But I don't see advertising going away. It's just they've got to get more creative and useful. And you see useful advertising on TikTok and Instagram, it's kind of good. It's just a question of what data it's using and whether you're a participant in it. But I see more subscriptions. Scott?
Scott Galloway · 59:59
So I'm an investor in Post News. Yeah, I'm an advisor. The original sin of the web was probably that we didn't build in more seamless micropayments. Because it immediately evolved to an attention economy. And to capture people's attention at all costs with algorithms leads to these externalities. So the GRU is not weaponizing Netflix. New York Times does not depress teen girls. The subscription model just seems to be healthier for society. And I would argue it's gonna to both. You have the BBC, which is sort of forced subscription I guess. But they try to call, I mean I'm in the honeymoon phase here, right? When I watch the BBC, I'm like, oh they're trying to call balls and strikes, I kind of like this. And then you have the thick layer of for profit advertising that's more entertaining, but quite frankly, it's just more sensationalist like tune in at eleven, right? Come back after the break. So I think that getting people the opportunity to pay 5¢ to read an article if they're interested in it, and also give creators more money. I like the idea of subscription. So I'm hopeful that that gets, that making it easier to pay becomes a thing.
Kara Swisher · 1:01:06
You've got to show people the value though. Like what's the actual value? And so I think they haven't been challenged because it's been so easy and our governments let them do it through sucking up everybody's data and being giant. As Walt Wadsberg used to say to me, you know, rapacious information thieves. And that's what they are. That's what they really are.
Scott Galloway · 1:01:21
But I don't know if you saw today, Twitter is having a 50% off sale today. Serious, Twitter has said, if you give us a $250,000, we'll give you $500,000 in advertising at today's rate card. They basically said everything's half off. He's cutting the price on Tesla's. He's cutting a 50% off. This tells you what a shit show it is a Twitter right now.
Kara Swisher · 1:01:45
They're selling the furniture tomorrow. I'm excited. I'm buying, I'm trying to buy the big bird.
Scott Galloway · 1:01:49
When you have to sell
Kara Swisher · 1:01:51
Now go look at my tweet, go buy things. There's like fantastic. You could walk out of here with a chair too. These are also, I know how much all of them cost. But they've got some good shit at Twitter. They had good taste. They're having a sale tomorrow 7AM to PT to 10AM.
Scott Galloway · 1:02:06
Media company in the world right now, even as hard as it is anywhere, is offering you media at 50% off their rate card.
Kara Swisher · 1:02:14
Yeah. And chairs, Eames chairs for $25
Scott Galloway · 1:02:18
Should we go in the way in the back?
Kara Swisher · 1:02:19
In the back there. We'll try to get to as many as possible.
Speaker · 1:02:21
Hi, I'm Lisa Hsu, big fan of your podcasts.
Scott Galloway · 1:02:24
Thank you.
Speaker · 1:02:24
Your Portfolio Podcasts. So I teach startup founders negotiation skills to help them create and claim value for the companies and the missions that they back. So a question from them, the builders out there, how do you advise in this current climate of headwinds versus tailwinds? There's a lot more headwinds. I love the language that you used to describe it. How do you advise them on the balance of grit versus quit? Because we just-
Scott Galloway · 1:02:49
Grit versus quit?
Speaker · 1:02:51
Quit. Yes. We hear the advice, just keep going. But how do you know when you're building the next Airbnb versus ask Gs? So...
Kara Swisher · 1:02:59
Right. Oh, meaning quit whatever you're doing. Yes. Wow. That's a good question. I mean, most founders that I've met, I think grit is the most important part. They think they have a great idea, you should keep going with it. But I'm a firm believer of quitting. I'm a big quitter. I leave people all the time when I feel like it's not, I'm not making a product I like or I'm not having fun. Whatever criteria happened to meet or I don't wanna... I had a job where I... It was... I'm not gonna say when it was, but someone's like, well why are you leaving? I said, just don't wanna talk to you anymore. I can't say another word. And they were like, what? And I go, really? I I don't want to talk to you anymore. I'm sorry to tell you that, but it's a little awkward. But I think there there's there's power in leaving constantly. Scott's been someone who's been through all kinds of leaving, goings and leavings and changing companies. I think that's under a value, the ability that they think you're jumpy or whatever, but you should really know your value and then figure out where you belong. But be willing to go is one of my strengths, I think. What about you?
Scott Galloway · 1:04:02
There's grit around working hard and making sacrifices. There's grit around realizing it is, if you're a young person and you have kids, and you're in a startup, and your relationships aren't as healthy as they should be, and you're not as healthy as you should be, and and you're in 20 and your thirties, and you're thinking, shit, this is hard. I'm like, you're exactly where you should be right now in your life. And I'd like to think that some of those trade offs that, by the way, my my my wife is here that we both made, paid off. That's grit. But the best thing that can happen to you in a small company is success. The worst thing that can happen is, the second best thing that can happen to you is quick failure. I started an incubator in 1999 in New York, backed by Goldman Sachs, Maveron, JPMorgan, and a host of like rich billionaire guys. Maveron, which was Howard Schultz's VC. Boom, we go in, the .com bubble collapses. Seven months later, I called him and said, this should makes no sense anymore. I returned what little money we had back. It flew into a mountain so fast. But you know what, that's a victory, because failing fast is the second best thing that can happen. The worst thing that's happened to me professionally, I started a company called Red Envelope in 1997. And there was always signs of hope, Always signs You
Kara Swisher · 1:05:13
can go back to that. What was with that? I was just reading up on you on that. Yeah. Kept returning.
Scott Galloway · 1:05:18
What would Tim think? Anyways.
Kara Swisher · 1:05:21
It's like, what's wrong with you?
Scott Galloway · 1:05:23
Let me finish. All right. So the worst thing that happened to me was it took me eleven years to fail. And there were certain moments where I should have just said, rather than trying to burn the village to save it and take on these horrible people, Sequoia Capital, should have just left. I should have just sold my stock and left. I should have just called it a day. But I thought, no, this is what leaders do. They never give up. Oh, there's a time to give up. You want to talk about leaving? Americans' core competence that's built into our DNA is we know when to leave. Oh, they're persecuting me? I'm out of here. There's no economic opportunity. I'm moving west. So, grit is your willingness to sacrifice things in the short term, to give it your all, to leave it on the field. But have a kitchen cabinet of people who say to you, okay, I've started nine companies, I'm three, four and two. I've had more failures than wins. But all you need is one or two wins. Especially in a great economy like The UK and The US, where we don't embrace failure, that's bullshit, but we tolerate it. And we let you move on to the next thing. So hopefully you have some people in your life who can tell you because it's very hard to read the label from inside of the bottle that boss, you've given it your all, but maybe it's time for you and your investors and your employees to move on. I don't think there's any shame in that. But what I hate to see is people will say, Never say never. And just keep going and
Kara Swisher · 1:06:46
keep Hustle banging their Hustle porn.
Scott Galloway · 1:06:48
That's the right term.
Kara Swisher · 1:06:49
Right here.
Speaker · 1:06:50
Hi. I'm Jamie. Thanks very much for coming to London. No problem. Scott, you talk often about the idolatry of innovators. We do have some or I'd like to think so some good role models in tech. The Collison brothers, for one, seems like a a good example.
Speaker · 1:07:04
Yep.
Speaker · 1:07:04
Whitney Wolf possibly is quite a good example.
Scott Galloway · 1:07:06
Yep.
Speaker · 1:07:07
Why do you not think we we hold these people up in high regard? Why do you think we're all obsessed with Elon Musk?
Scott Galloway · 1:07:14
Well, I think that people like Brian Chesky and Mark Benioff, I do Tim think Cook, Tim Cook. Tim Cook, I do think that they get decent recognition.
Kara Swisher · 1:07:23
Underpaid.
Scott Galloway · 1:07:24
But here's the thing, as a species, we can't decide to worship, it's just built into us to worship. But we get to decide who we worship. Our brain is big, our competitive advantage as a species is our brain is so big. We have to be expelled from the body too early. And we have this enormous brain that can ask very big questions, but it's not big enough to answer them. So into that void slips a super being or church. And as education or as societies become more educated and wealthy, the reliance on a super being and church attendance goes down. But we still need something to worship. So the closest thing that feels mystical or godlike is technology. I don't understand how the this thing works. Feels So like the guy who invented it is worthy of our attention. The guy solving climate change or putting people on Mars. And these are the new idols. And I find it's dangerous because generally speaking, and every person I've ever known plays this out, everyone is fallible. But I think there's, it's a dangerous level of idolatry that these individuals can turn off and on battlefield technologies, can sic their 110,000,000 followers on people and intimate that they're guilty of sex crimes. I think there's just, we have fallen way too in love with these individuals. But to your point, we should probably do a better job of highlighting some of the people who are good role models.
Kara Swisher · 1:08:38
Yeah, think people just like bad boys. You know what I mean? Like he just, he's just, he's, you can't look away. It's very much like Trump. He's a very similar... When everyone was talking about him running, I thought he would win. Because I was like, oh, I see why. You know, here he is this very moderately successful person who he basically used his parents' money to make money and lied about a lot of it and went bankrupt, lied. But he was sort of a person's version of a rich, but he was like a cartoon rich person in America. And he was entertaining and he was interesting and he said things that you wanted to hear. And it was really fascinating to watch it happen. I happened to be in Kentucky when they were, when he was saying they're going to bring back the jobs, you know. He had done that and that was one of his sales pitches to the people of Kentucky that were voting for him. And I went there too because they were trying to also do silica, like tech stuff there. And I got in front of all these people who were like sort of Trumpy, but also very much like, yeah, Cole is coming back. And I said, coal's not coming back. And when it comes back, it'll be robots who are gonna do it because you people cost money to the rich people and they're gonna fuck you. 10 ways to Sunday. And by the way, our tech stuff isn't coming here either because you're not educated enough. So sorry, you're not getting anything. And they and actually people came up to me and say thank you for telling the truth. Was like, they're all lying to you and you have to figure something else out. I don't know what you can make here, but it's gotta be something. And so, or not or just, you know, just
Scott Galloway · 1:10:02
They make fantastic whiskey and bourbon.
Kara Swisher · 1:10:05
Great whiskey, whatever. I don't care what they make.
Scott Galloway · 1:10:07
Some of
Kara Swisher · 1:10:07
the best. You do see why Elon's
Scott Galloway · 1:10:09
Raise horses? I'm sorry. Ahead.
Kara Swisher · 1:10:10
You see why Elon's attractive to me. He tells it like it is. The lords and ladies are running your show. Literally the richest person in the world is talking to you about lords and ladies. It's hysterical. It's... And then people are like, yeah, man, you're on our side. I'm like, are are you kidding? I don't think his feet touch the fucking ground. I think people lift him and move him around, you know, the way they live. And so it's, you know, just I think he manifests other people's frustration with their lives and he sticks it to the man and they always are like, Oh Kara, why are you being mean to him? He's sticking it to the man. I'm like, He is the fucking man. Like he's the man. He's sticking it to you and regular people. He's always punching down now. We didn't do that before as much.
Scott Galloway · 1:10:50
But to your point about the idolatry of innovators and specifically in America called the idolatry of wealth. Granted I'm in the honeymoon phase here but something I've noticed about The UK versus living in The US. In The US people ask you what you do. And it's basically kind of this mating ritual. I'm trying to figure out how rich you are. And that's kind of where you feel like the question is going. And here people ask here, where are you from? And it's nice. It doesn't, look you're infected with the same capitalism which I still think is the best system of its kind. But it seems a little bit more elegant here. It seems a little less naked here. But again, like I said, I'm in the honeymoon.
Kara Swisher · 1:11:25
They're quietly assessing you behind the scenes. They're just not saying. Alright. The last question was right. These are great questions, by the way. I'm Caroline. I was
Scott Galloway · 1:11:33
Who's Caroline?
Speaker · 1:11:33
Caroline.
Scott Galloway · 1:11:34
Nice to meet you,
Speaker · 1:11:34
Caroline. Nice to meet you. I was interested in your view on kind of remote working and whether it's a COVID blip. You've obviously moved recently to London. Mhmm. I know, for instance, a lot of the Meta leadership team have also moved here and sort of scattered. But I feel like, you know, one thing's with Musk, a lot of people have actually, behind closed doors, said it was... They kind of admired his stance on, like, cutting remote working. A lot of CEOs, I think, say, you know, behind closed doors, again, doesn't really work. Mhmm. And I'm interested in your view now that there's a recession, do you think employers are gonna have less power on that and things are gonna shift back?
Kara Swisher · 1:12:05
That's a good question. I I have been remote working for thirty years so I don't... I've worked in the back of my house often. Haven't had... We've had offices but they they tended to be choice of whether you go in or not. I I I do... I don't think it's a hybrid. I think people have to intentionally meet together as a group. I don't think everyone needs to go into an... I've never thought that that you need to... I used to hate going into newsrooms. I didn't find them particularly helpful because it was all a lot of waste of time and a lot of waste of commuting, etcetera. And a lot of socializing, which is great, which is fine if you're young. But I I I don't think... I think you've got to figure out a way to intentionally get your people together. So it's put... During the productive times and the COVID has given people a chance to do this and have optionality of being in one place. I do think too much money was spent on headquarters and food and all that crap, know, like you... It's just when you go to any of these companies, it's it's... There's like little college campuses because they wanna trap you there either. And they used to try to trap you with the food and the stuff and the dry cleaning, the haircuts and the massages and da da da, on and on. Now they just order you to be there, which is I don't think helps very much either. Certain jobs you could probably be more creative, but I don't think hybrid is quite right, but it's some mix of letting people be more flexible around kids, around elderly, taking care of elderly, because we don't respond to that.
Scott Galloway · 1:13:24
I think actually the most enduring change coming out of COVID, other than the politicization of science, will be remote work. And that is, it is here to stay. Now there's some nuance. And that is the majority, we all have a tendency to process stuff in zero and ones. Back to nine to five or all remote. And the reality is 90% of companies will be somewhere in between. But if it's two to three days a week, you're talking about a net destruction in the demand for office space of 40%, which is a $12,000,000,000,000 asset class. You're talking about a huge decline in the value of commercial assets that'll be all pumped into residential because all of a sudden, I don't know how many of you, I worked remotely all through COVID decided, wow, our house isn't as nice as I'd hoped and you start upgrading your house. So that money is gonna get flushed into residential. There's some nuance here. It's an enormous unlock for people with kids. It's an enormous unlock for people with aging parents. It's an enormous unlock if you're struggling, you have some sort of physical limitations or maybe you can't afford to live. The people who've decided everyone show me someone who said everyone's back in the office. I'll show you a wealthy guy who has someone taking care of his kids and can afford to live near work. They grew up in the four times. They grew up in the before times and they were able to get into work and that's how they were successful. So they say everyone else should be successful. There's a negative to this though. And that is people under the age of 35, I would call it, who are still hunting for mentors, still hoping, hunting for colleagues, still hunting for mates. We don't like to talk about this. A third of marriages begin at work. The office is a feature, not a bug for young people. It's situational. I think it's a huge unlock. I don't think it's going back, but young people get into an office. It's a great place to establish relationships.
Kara Swisher · 1:15:09
I do think CS will figure it out. Think more productive, they do intent. A lot of people are using the word intentional, which is kind of an unusual word, but you can do that. You can tell people where to be and when you want to do it. So we'll see. That's a great question. Alright, everybody. Thank you so much.
Scott Galloway · 1:15:24
Thank you.
Kara Swisher · 1:15:25
We really appreciate it.
Scott Galloway · 1:15:27
This episode of Pivot was recorded live in London and produced by Lara Nayman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Thanks to Saul Klein at Phoenix Court, home to Local Globe, a founder's best partner from seed to great series a, and EMEA's most successful investor in unicorns at seed stage. Ernie Entratot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Miel Savario. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business.
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