Guest · 45:33
Viscerally understands the aesthetics of power and how to make himself a vehicle, a vessel for the grievances and desires of a lot of Americans. And Trump has the charisma and the fame and the stature to do that. And Bannon and Trump have slightly different goals. Everything for Trump is about himself. And when Bannon describes him as his instrument, what he's talking about is trying to channel the movement into an institution of the party where it can transcend the limits of being a cult of personality around a single leader and actually achieve the durability through the party structure that it would need to be a hundred year regime.
Kara Swisher · 46:28
Yeah. That's why it's not gonna work, just FYI. Anyway, it's it's been a a busy week for Donald Trump and his legal team trying to put a stop to the hush money trial. It's not working. It's slated to begin next week. He loves to do those delay tactics. I know you've been following all that. I just would love you to talk about the Trump legal issues, helping him with these MAGA supporters that you've been chronicling.
Guest · 46:48
Yeah. So there was an amazing moment where I happened to be at a cigar party on the sidelines of the Georgia State Republican Convention.
Kara Swisher · 46:59
Oh, wow. That sounds fun.
Guest · 47:01
It ended up being the night where Trump got indicted the second time. And so I was actually in the position of being with these Trump supporters when they were finding out in real time, or even in some cases being the one to break the news to them and seeing how they reacted. It helped me understand because I think for people outside the movement, there's very much a sense of what is relatable about paying hush money to a porn star or mishandling classified information? How could that be something that anyone else could think could happen to them? But if you believe that that's all made up, politicized charges, planted evidence just to stop him from his political opponents, then you see it as, well, what chance do I have if they can do that to him with all his power? And I mean, these were people in the Georgia party who knew people who had been subpoenaed or charged because of January 6 or the fake electors investigation. And so it was personal to them. And there was a way in which there actually was something very powerfully relatable about the sense of alienation of how can this be happening in America that that that the supporters very strongly identify with with when you see Trump and these all caps truths about how can they be taking away my my businesses and how can they be putting me on trial, and this is so unfair.
Kara Swisher · 48:36
Yeah. It's the grievance industrial complex, I call it.
Scott Galloway · 48:39
Do you... When when... As you've gotten to know Bannon, how did it change your view on politics in America?
Guest · 48:45
Yeah. The only way that that I ever became comfortable understanding what happened in the last few years was to understand it in a much longer timeline. And that there was actually a lot of continuity between what we call MAGA and the dawn of the modern conservative movement with Barry Goldwater. And the issue was that it was systematically marginalized by the Republican Party for many decades. It made an outside attempt with Pat Buchanan and with the Tea Party, but it never until Trump had someone with the charisma and the resources and the fame and the wherewithal to mainstream it. And that to me was really... The only way it made sense is how this could spread so so far so quickly was to understand that it was actually something very deeply rooted in American political culture.
Kara Swisher · 49:42
Absolutely. Yeah. That... They never got their chance, really. You know? And now they've got their guy. He's right about the instrument part. He's right. It is a lot of marketing too. And and tapping into long held feelings by not much of the country, but enough of the country about grievance and being left out and left behind and beyond that, and just being it's never your fault. That's the other part, which, of course, it's never their fault. They never... They could possibly never imagine they did anything wrong that deserves this kind of treatment, but it'll be interesting. So do you have any predictions about what's coming with this, where it ends up? Does it have the strength? We were just earlier talking about, you know, the abortion thing. There's a lot of hits it's been taking. At the same time, it still continues to have remarkable resilience. Where... How... When you're looking at it, I'm not asking you make a prediction, how do you feel about its resilience?
Guest · 50:36
I think there are two sides to that coin. The the way that the that the party infrastructure is more unified and consolidated behind Trump is a huge asset, especially, you know, as an offset to, like, the the mess of his legal troubles and the RNC's finances. And whatever's going on with that campaign, the fact that you've got the field organization out there in the party and it's full of really died in the wool Trump supporters is meaningful. The flip side is that Democrats... And the book deals with this strand of the story also, how Democrats and some anti Trump Republicans figured out a way to use an anti MAGA message effectively, to to wedge off Republicans who are uncomfortable with MAGA and what they see as how the party has changed and gotten more extreme. And that's really an underappreciated story about how the midterm results surprisingly were so favorable to the Democrats. And that's key to understanding the bid that the Biden campaign is making. And that is gonna... I think, you know, it's it's a vanishingly small slice of the electorate, but it's gonna be a close election, and that could be decisive.
Kara Swisher · 51:56
Yeah. Absolutely. I've always been amazed how, and Bannon does this beautifully, how much losers can pretend they're winners and convince you of... That they didn't lose. It's really... They've lost everything over the past couple of years, and they continue to act like they're the biggest winners ever. And that's the strength of Bannon to do that. You know? Don't believe your lying eyes. Anyway, anyway, this is a really important book. There's several books recently that I think are really substantive. Isaac's is one of them, which is called Finish What We Started, the MAGA Movement's Ground War to End Democracy.
Guest · 52:28
Thank you so much.
Kara Swisher · 52:29
Thank you. Man, that's Steve Bannon. I watch him carefully, Scott. I really do. Yeah. You pay a lot of attention to him. Anyway, one... I I really urge you to read this book. He's a real... He's someone that we think of as an unmade bed and kind of a slug, but he's certainly not. Anyway, one more quick break. We'll be back for predictions.
[Ad break]
Kara Swisher · 54:20
Okay, Scott. Before we do predictions, I just wanna note some news that just came in. OJ Simpson has died at the age of 76. His family posted a statement on X. During this time of transition, his family asked that you please respect their wishes, for privacy and grace. The Simpson family, I don't know what to say. I have no regard for him, so I don't wanna say rest in peace. I don't know. What do you think?
Scott Galloway · 54:40
I think he's a murderer, I hope he suffered. Took two innocent lives, was exonerated by a jury that fell into the trap of identity politics and incompetent prosecution, and go straight to hell, boss.
— Predictions segment begins —
Kara Swisher · 54:53
Yeah. I think I'm with you on that one, Scott Galloway. Alright. Let's hear a prediction.
Scott Galloway · 54:57
Well, on that note.
Kara Swisher · 55:00
We're so... Like, I was at a thing the other day, and I said someone should die. I think I was talking about Alex Jones because he's so heinous. And someone's like, you shouldn't wish death on people. I said, I think I shall. I think I shall. Anyway, let's hear your predictions. I'm not gonna kill him.
Scott Galloway · 55:12
Yeah. Know. There's there's some people that there are some people that deserve one retirement plan. My my prediction is super boring. I think big bank stocks are about to... They're about to kick off their earnings tomorrow when this releases with JPMorgan. I think they're gonna beat their earnings expectations because the general, their stocks, what have been priced into their stocks was the assumption that interest rates were coming down. And big banks kind of live and die by their net interest margin. And that is they loan out money to mortgages for 7%, and they pay you kind of 3% or 4%. And that margin is where they make the bulk of their money. And people are assuming that the interest rates they were going have to offer people, because inflation declining, was gonna come down. It hasn't. And in addition, there's been some consolidation. Some regional banks have gone out of business, and also there's been a flight of capital from regional banks who are worried about an SVB like situation into the biggest banks. So you're also seeing the IPO markets come back a little bit. So I just think it's champagne and cocaine for these guys. And I think that the... Despite the fact they have actually outperformed the S and P and had a great year, I still think they're gonna continue to outperform, and they're gonna surprise to the upside this week.
— Predictions segment ends —
Kara Swisher · 56:22
Yeah. They also, though, were hurt... Were looking for a rate cup. They looked like they're not getting one. For some reason, Jamie Dimon's been a little irritating lately in his pronouncements. Have you noticed that? There's been a lot of pronouncing, and he was wrong the first time about where the economy was going. Now he's sort
Scott Galloway · 56:35
of It's impossible to blooming it. It's... Yeah. I hope... I I think he'd make actually a pretty good treasury secretary.
Kara Swisher · 56:40
He's going for it for whatever administration. He's sucking up to Trump and sucking up to Biden. He was at that Japan party with missus missus Sanchez yesterday. Go ahead.
Scott Galloway · 56:50
Oh, really? Mhmm. Yeah. He's He's on the list, but we're not. We must have just barely been barely been cut out.
Guest · 56:58
Barely.
Scott Galloway · 56:59
But I am going to the embassy on sustainable fashion.
Kara Swisher · 57:03
I wonder should I... You know, if we had a... If I got a White House state dinner, I'd have a hard time picking between you and Amanda. I would. I kinda wanna go with you in a weird way. If you know it, Amanda, I'm sorry, but Scott would be... That would be, like... We could... We'd get him rested.
Scott Galloway · 57:20
No. That'd be fun.
Kara Swisher · 57:20
We would get him rested. I feel like we'd be wandering
Scott Galloway · 57:23
bad, but good.
Kara Swisher · 57:24
We'd be wandering around and then go up... Or somehow we'll be up in the residence.
Guest · 57:29
Stealing the China. Stealing things?
Scott Galloway · 57:31
Stealing the branded China.
Kara Swisher · 57:32
Sorry, Amanda.
Scott Galloway · 57:33
I may
Kara Swisher · 57:33
have to take Scott if
Scott Galloway · 57:34
I can. Putting pastries in my purse.
Kara Swisher · 57:35
Yes. Exactly. Yeah. You're not wearing the dress.
Scott Galloway · 57:38
What would they do? There's nothing they could do.
Kara Swisher · 57:40
There's nothing they
Guest · 57:41
could do in
Scott Galloway · 57:41
a woke White House.
Kara Swisher · 57:42
It'd be us and the j six hostages would be insane. Fuck those people. They broke the law. They should go to jail.
Scott Galloway · 57:49
Of a jail. I mean, you're the only date I've ever had to the White House. You and Tammy had it. You
Kara Swisher · 57:53
dressed up. You were such a good boy. You were such a good boy there. Let me just tell you.
Scott Galloway · 57:57
Very intimidating.
Kara Swisher · 57:58
Your best behavior.
Scott Galloway · 57:59
When the secretary of state stops and goes, Cherish Swisher. And I'm like, Jesus Christ. This... Jesus. Maybe I should be nicer to her.
Kara Swisher · 58:08
Anyway, listeners, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show, or call 85551 Okay, Scott. This is the show. This is such a good substantive show today, I think. I like it a lot. But before we go
Scott Galloway · 58:24
Oh, you're happy.
Kara Swisher · 58:24
We're nominated for a Webby award, and we need you to vote for us at the link in the episode description. We're in second. We need to get to first place. But, anyway, we'll be back on Tuesday with more pivot. Vote for us for the webbies.
Scott Galloway · 58:38
Desperate for other people's affirmation. Daddy is addicted to people's other people's affirmation, so please feed my habit.
Kara Swisher · 58:45
In any case, read us out.
Scott Galloway · 58:46
Today's show was produced by Lara Nayman, Zoe Marcus, Taylor Griffin. Ernie and her Todd engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Emil Savario. Nishat Krewa is Vox Media's executive producer of audio. Make sure you're subscribed to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thank you for listening to Pivot New York Magazine and Vox Media. You can subscribe to the magazine at newyorkmag.com/pod. We'll be back next week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Rest in peace, Nicole Simpson and Ronald Goldman.
[Ad break]
