Guest · 40:55
You talk about a perp walk. I was thinking of those words. You know, there's many ways to do that. Some is a hearing. Right?
Kara Swisher · 41:02
Mhmm.
Guest · 41:02
That's been happening before. Sometimes I feel it's just like people throwing popcorn at the screen. But then there is also major accountability from the public. And by the way, the images of Mark Zuckerberg sailing while this was going on and the anger that people felt about that, you can have all kinds of versions of perp blocks. What I want to see is action, not just anger. I want this anger translated into action, might be a better way of putting it. There are some really straightforward things we can do here. Senator Marquis worked to make the Children's Online Privacy Protection Act apply to older children. The work that we can do when it comes to privacy, and we know from what happened with Apple when they gave their customers the option to opt in, 75% did not opt in. Well, what if you did that with the other platforms? You require that. These are some of the things that Senator Cantwell and I and others are working on with a privacy bill, and I think they'll finally be... And you are correct. Every corner you walk around, there's another lobbyist. They have stopped this stuff from going forward, and I've already talked to our leaders about this in the senate. I've I've talked to multiple Republicans in the last few days. I've seen increased interest in the actual bills. I'm saying things like, so we just had this hearing and then we're gonna do nothing. Come on here. Look at this. This is months of work we've done on various bills that have been in the works. On antitrust, I think the committee when you look at the bills we have taken on an inordinate number of them have involved competition policy so far, not just in tech, in pharma. An inordinate number of hearings that were just as bipartisan as the hearing I took part in that senator Blumenthal and Blackburn headed up. So I just see, the time on multiple fronts. You cannot just say one front, right? You can't just say this is all about children and Facebook. Also going to be antitrust because it's got to apply to other platforms. It also the algorithm piece of it, think is the most interesting because how do you do that while still protecting speech? You could look at what has been suggested. Do you remove the immunity when there's amplification and they're making profits off the amplification? You know, answer is, well, what happens to the recipes that we want to amplify in the cookbook? Oh, guess what? You're not going to be sued for that. So those kinds of things have to be part of the discussion. I've already put forward a bill to allow for the lifting of the immunity when it comes to vaccine misinformation when it is in the middle of a public health crisis. Senator Warner, Norono and I did one about discriminatory conduct. That is another So way. And finally, letting the researchers in, we can easily do that. Yeah. And allowing for more transparency on algorithms.
Kara Swisher · 44:03
So one of the things that Facebook did this time was... And I wrote a column about it, is they... Aggressive. They attacked her as a nobody, no nothing. We... She wasn't in the room. And my my response was, if you work in a sausage factory and anyone knows the sausage is bad who works there and understands what happened, you don't have to be in the C Suite making bad decisions about sausage. So what what what did you think of the reaction? Because it was quite aggressive at her and at... You know, I just saw Monica Bicker, who I thought was really quite sly but terrible. She's the head of whatever she's the head of there. And and it... It's been a very aggressive movement. I I was sort of surprised. What do you think of that?
Guest · 44:44
I was actually surprised, but I guess when you track back and that's come out publicly, I mean, he made it very clear, no apologies. Right? They're not gonna And that's the... That's what you saw in action. You saw the tweets from people that work there, the kind of things they're saying. And I actually asked Frances Haugen. I said, you... They attacked the research when she noted that Facebook was known as putting together. They boasted about it. Right? This huge research team. And anyone that's read the ugly truth knows that, you know, the story of how they put together these research teams and what happened. And then they undermine them and they basically throw them under the bus. Well, we know at the same time they were cutting out the access for NYU and some of the other places. So I thought that was aggressive. I think it's always, I've been through this common attack from tech is, Oh, you don't know anything about You're you're mistaken. You're... You don't have the kind of knowledge we do. You know, they do it to anyone that takes them on and... But I was kinda surprised they did it to her.
Kara Swisher · 45:56
Yeah. And what did you... What was the reaction from Capitol Hill with that?
Guest · 46:00
I think anyone could listen to her for a few hours. She had this amazing ability
Scott Galloway · 46:05
Yeah.
Guest · 46:06
To The
Scott Galloway · 46:06
perfect witness.
Guest · 46:07
Subjects and explain them, which actually takes more smart sometimes than just knowing the complex subjects. And I think that no one believed that her calm manner,
Scott Galloway · 46:18
her
Guest · 46:18
actual her actual embracing, you know, she liked people that work, she likes things about the company, she wasn't all just thought, you know, the company should be destroyed and abolished. That wasn't her tone. Her tone was, I wanna make this better, which is what everyone should believe whether they're in the company or leading the company. Right. And that's what I thought was so appealing about her as a witness. She also wasn't partisan, she was respectful. I think it made, I just think we've been waiting for this moment and I've loved our hearings we've had on big data and on home devices and obviously they've been really good. They've been important because we collect the actual information and the senators involved it. But this thing broke through, not just to the senators working on tech, it broke through to everyone in Congress and to the public.
Scott Galloway · 47:13
Well, in the '80s, one out of two fatalities on the road involving youth involved alcohol. And then mothers bound together and put tremendous pressure on Washington to pass laws that resulted in a raising of the age to drink alcohol. This does feel different because it feels like parents are really incensed around this. One, does it feel different for you because you hear from your constituents? It does feel like this has taken it to a new level of, I don't know-
Kara Swisher · 47:43
Mistrust....
Scott Galloway · 47:43
Of malevolence, mendaciousness, whatever you want to call it. Why wouldn't we just consider age gating? We age gate alcohol, tobacco, pornographic content. Why wouldn't we just age gate algorithmically driven content, especially across some of these platforms? Does it feel different this time?
Guest · 48:01
Yes. That is one approach that I think is worth looking at, and it's certainly supposed to be happening. They're not... They're allowing younger kids, of course, on Instagram. We now know something like 40% of these kids are on it. So that is that is a a piece of it even though they're not supposed to. And you look at the wealth of these companies and they should find a way to do this. But beyond that, I think your bigger question, which I loved, is given that, you know, I keep... I wrote in my book about how in the old days it was, you know, farmers with their pitchforks and union organizers that that really got this thing going to a pitch scream so that Washington finally acted. And some of it was states acting in their own ways and that pushed the action in Washington. By the way, you already seen this privacy. The moms and dads, they have been through hell with this pandemic already. Right? So everyone's much more aware. They've been hanging out with their kids at home, balancing their toddlers on their knees and their laptops on their desks, teaching their first graders how to use the mute button. And guess what? They've realized how their kids are looking at these devices all the time, the kind of sites they're looking at. And I think what Frances Huggins stirred up, it wasn't all as much as the eating disorder for me as someone who's let a bill pass bill in this area and how knowing it's the number one mortality rate for people with mental illness, how viscerally bad that was. I think a lot of parents heard all this and they thought, wait a minute. Yeah. I'm so mad that these things are targeting my kids and these ads of whatever kind it is. And I think that today, parents trying to raise their kids in a really hard world and realizing they're up against this big Facebook and all these platforms that are making it harder for them, I think that's gonna be the demand for action. By the way, I saw that happen with EpiPen. I took that on and that was... We were not making much progress on some of these issues and the moms basically all taking it on made a difference to force some rebates and other things that brought the price down. And that was my own experience. My daughter has an EpiPen, so I was able to see that and was in the front line of getting that done. But I think certain things involving parents are about as personal as it gets. And in a moment where you don't have as much connected groups working on things and it's much harder to do it, in the pandemic, you have to rely on this kind of broader, anger, and I think that's tapped in with parents.
Kara Swisher · 50:36
It's it's it's interesting. My dentist was mad at Facebook, and I... He never has spoken of it. He's like, those assholes.
Guest · 50:42
Did he get so mad? Did that affect him?
Kara Swisher · 50:44
He was good. The crown the crown is excellent. But I've never heard him say anything. He definitely had opinions, which was fascinating. Now last thing, Haugen is not on board for breaking up Facebook, although she did suggest some sort of ministry or data privacy agency Yeah. Makes me nervous. I have to say that one made me nervous. I'm like, no. The government should not be in the business of content whatsoever.
Guest · 51:06
Yeah. I don't... I... Go ahead.
Kara Swisher · 51:08
Let me just ask a question. So one is, what do you think about that solution she had and then the one she didn't want, which was, and this is your area of expertise, antitrust. A lot of the courts are overturning things because of current antitrust law. They have to. They... It's not that they're conservative. It's just that's the law as written. So... And that's how Facebook is getting out of certain things and making it difficult. Do you think there needs to be a change in the anti... You said this, but breaking up Facebook, this is not probably gonna happen. So I'd love to get your thought on those two things.
Guest · 51:37
Yeah. I'm so glad you're clarifying this because I did note some of my Republican colleagues, like, go to the nth degree. And by the way, that's probably not about Facebook. It's about them, certain people Yeah. With other interests, with businesses. Mhmm. The answer to what I... How I handled it after she said that, is I actually asked her about a bunch of the stuff we're working on in the antitrust base. She literally gave a thumbs up from the witness stand, which is about discriminatory conduct, self preferencing, exclusionary conduct where because you're the big guy on the block, you're the big platform, you make it harder for others to compete because you own all the data, because you put your search preferences for your own products up at the top and you know all of this conduct going on. So she was way into doing something on that. Think she, and I'm going to talk to her in the near future here, I think she gets that that actually limits innovation when you have that ability. That is all antitrust. It doesn't sound like antitrust, but that is the area of competitive policy. So what she's basically saying is, I don't want to demolish the company, it's how I read it, I don't want to get rid of it. But part of what you do with antitrust, as you know Kara, is when a merger comes before you, they look to see, does this hurt competition in some way? Existing laws have allowed the DOJ and the FTC. They're using them right now to go after those cases against Google and Facebook, and and it's not easy. It has allowed them to take on some major mergers even as we know now, before or after. But I think we need to upgrade the laws to make it easier. My guess, given what... How she answered the questions when I asked about some of that stuff, she would agree with this. It's just when people just say, should we break up all these big companies? You know, people are gonna go, well, no, that's not quite the answer. I get that. Mhmm. But it doesn't mean that you don't... When you start going under the hood, this is about stopping mergers that are anti competitive. This is about possibly divesting some assets, but not destroying a company. This is about consent orders where you tell to merge companies, the justice department says, you can do this but you're not gonna be able to do that because then there'll be no competition in an area. And it's about updating our laws so they're as sophisticated as the companies that are participating in our economy when we have done nothing because everyone's listening to all these people that have been paid by the tech companies. Literally millions of dollars throwing them around at fundraisers, throwing them around everywhere. And that's what I said at the hearing. Let's let's be honest. That's who you're listening to when you go around the corner, and you better be listening to Francis Hogan.
Kara Swisher · 54:24
Alright. Senator Klobuchar, good luck. I can't wait to see all these
Guest · 54:28
bills. I'm... As you can see, I'm energized. I currently got got this on the front page. We've got it in the thing. People are actually... We have to gallop the nuts on this moment Yeah. Or there's gonna be the next thing, and then everyone trade... That's what the tech companies will want. They want it to go away.
Kara Swisher · 54:44
They do.
Scott Galloway · 54:44
Keep fighting the good fight, Senator.
Kara Swisher · 54:46
Okay. Appreciate it. Thanks for coming on. Alright, Scott. That was fantastic. We love senator Klobuchar, don't we? We really are fans. We're fans of hers.
Scott Galloway · 54:54
We think she's
Kara Swisher · 54:54
she's got... She's rocking. She should be president.
Scott Galloway · 54:56
Smart, hardworking, no nonsense, very honest, high integrity.
Kara Swisher · 55:01
I'm behind her for president.
Scott Galloway · 55:02
Yeah. No.
Kara Swisher · 55:02
What do you think?
Scott Galloway · 55:03
I'm on team Klobuchar. I agree with you. I think she's fantastic.
Kara Swisher · 55:06
You my encounter with her, but I called... I said, hello, madam president. And she goes, oh, Kara. And I go, I'm not talking to you. I'm talking about the golden child. There you go. I like her a lot. She got into a... I thought she was getting into a big... One of those big, you know, black limo things at a a party we were at. And she got into, like, a a, like, a... I don't know. It was like a Toyota Corolla. Like, and someone else got into the big car. Anyway, he's here in Minnesota. We'll be back with more friends at Pivot and their predictions for q four and beyond as well as some of our own.
[Ad break]
— Predictions segment begins —
Kara Swisher · 56:44
Alright. Back with predictions. Segment for our quarterly review looking into q four and beyond with our friends at Pivot. Let's start with one on supply chain by Kevin O'Mara.
Guest · 56:52
Hey, Kara. Hey, Scott. Kevin O'Mara here, cofounder of Zero one hundred. Here's a supply chain prediction for 2022 that I'd love to see happen. It's about Apple's next big platform, cars, and the bet that Tim Cook will end up doing for the American economy, what Henry Ford did in 1914 when he blew people's minds by doubling wages in his auto plants to $5 per day and helped give rise to the middle class. My bet is that next year we'll see the first serious steps toward ramping up a US based production of cars, batteries, charging infrastructure, and most important, a service and content ecosystem like Apple Stores but for cars. And with all of this, the creation of tens of thousands of high paying middle class friendly careers. Tim Cook is the most supply chain savvy CEO in the world. I bet he'd love to have this be his legacy.
Scott Galloway · 57:36
So basically, a renaissance in American manufacturing that we're gonna start reshoring or onshoring more manufacturing. I think that's interesting.
Kara Swisher · 57:43
By the way, let me just correct, Kevin. Elon Musk is Henry Ford here. Has been doing all the pushing.
Scott Galloway · 57:49
You think that's
Kara Swisher · 57:50
I don't know if he can do it, like, who can't Or at least he's the one that started this... Started the fire here in this area. Yeah. That said
Scott Galloway · 57:56
I agree. Let's I agree.
Kara Swisher · 57:58
He... He's comparing him to Henry Ford because Henry Ford is the one that had the supply chain, essentially, the, you know, the assembly You figure out So what do you think about this?
Scott Galloway · 58:06
There's no doubt about it. I was on the board of a consumer products company, and we were reshoring because we're using automation. And what COVID has done is realized that a lack of diversity in your supply chain, specifically if you're a company that gets the majority of your shoes out of Vietnam, for example, it creates tremendous If you get 90% of your tops, you're a specialty retailer out of China, it just creates real vulnerability. So a lot of companies have decided that in addition to the interesting technology, the proximity, and also a reduced risk and supply chain interruption, you're seeing a lot of onshoring, a more lot kind of high value What's
Kara Swisher · 58:49
the downside? Americans cost too much and don't work hard enough? What's the you know, that's
Scott Galloway · 58:54
Well, no, the downside is that we have a tax policy that makes it much cheaper to hire a robot than an individual. And that is if you hire an individual, you have to pay payroll taxes. Whereas if you hire a robot or put a robot in place, you get to amortize it, you get tax deductions, you don't have to pay payroll taxes. So I think we have to figure out a way that we reinvest in people such that they have the skills to program, maintain this automation because it's coming. But people or I think Andrew Yang summarized it perfectly. People demonize immigrants. If you're looking for a culprit of manufacturing job loss, you should stop robots at the border.
Kara Swisher · 59:35
Robots. Bill Gates talks about that. Tax robots.
Scott Galloway · 59:38
So on the whole, I think it's a really good thing, onshoring. But we just have to be thoughtful about the jobs it displaces and how we reinvest some of those proceeds from that productivity back into retraining and apprenticeships. We can't do what we did with globalization, and that is it it it translated to enormous prosperity, but no progress. We didn't retrain or invest in the people that
Guest · 59:59
left behind.
Kara Swisher · 59:59
Excellent thing. That should be interesting. Apple definitely is gonna move, as you've talked about, into this space rather significantly. I agree with you. It's... They have to. And they're good at And they're
Scott Galloway · 1:00:09
good at Let me ask you this. Would you would you get on that waiting list? I would get on the waiting list for an Apple car.
Kara Swisher · 1:00:13
I would. I would. I would. Yeah. Although, I I I... The reason I don't get a Tesla because it seems... It's too expensive for... I don't wanna pay that, but it's gotta be a pretty cheap price, I have to say, for a car. I don't I don't love cars that much that I need to.
Scott Galloway · 1:00:26
It won't. Apple won't be cheap. Apple Apple won't be I'm
Kara Swisher · 1:00:29
not that much for a car. I'm just... I... If it's over $25,000, I won't pay for it. And even then, I'm like, no. So that's why I have a Kia. Anyway, alright. Next, a prediction on antitrust actions from Scott's best frenemy, Preet Bharara.
Guest · 1:00:45
Hi, Kara and Scott. An update to my predictions for antitrust actions in the coming months. The Senate Judiciary Committee, at long last, is about to hold a confirmation hearing for Jonathan Cantor, Biden's nominee to head the Department of Justice's antitrust division. He's a vocal critic of Big Tech, and he enters the scene as the DOJ mulls a lawsuit against Google's dominance of online advertising. Google also continues to have trouble in Europe, where the company is currently appealing $5,000,000,000 in antitrust penalties over the Android operating system, which is a potential sign of things to come in The US. And Apple may see further litigation related to its App Store after a federal antitrust suit filed by Fortnite creator Epic resulted in a split decision.
Kara Swisher · 1:01:28
Preet. Antitrust. That's what we just talked about with senator Klobuchar. So what think you of Preet's feelings on this issue? I think he's right. I think it's... Jonathan Cantor's really interesting character.
Scott Galloway · 1:01:38
I
Kara Swisher · 1:01:40
like him.
Scott Galloway · 1:01:40
I gotta be honest. I wasn't I wasn't even listening. All I could think about was, at code, we had that party on the roof deck. And I saw this semicircle of people just enraptured. And I walked over to see what was going on. I'm like, is there free cocaine over here? What's going on here? And it was Preet with a, like, a
Kara Swisher · 1:02:00
Whiskey.
Scott Galloway · 1:02:01
Glass of wine talking about something. And literally, it was like that. Did you ever see the movie Tootsie and Bill Murray was at a party just talking about pop philosophy and everyone's just just entranced? Literally, Preet is the most interesting man in the world, and I just couldn't stomach it. Everyone's, like, laughing and, like, oh, Preet.
Kara Swisher · 1:02:20
Yep.
Scott Galloway · 1:02:21
Oh, Preet. Oh my god. Anyways, I wasn't even
Kara Swisher · 1:02:24
Oh my god. Anti trust is the most interesting man Cantor, Google's dominance, Europe, Fortnite, etcetera. What do you think?
Scott Galloway · 1:02:33
Well, we know it's coming. We just don't know if it's a year or ten years. I'm an investor in Epic and Fortnite. I think it's I think it's a monster company. I think it's... Everyone talks about the metaverse. I think Fortnite is the leader if there is a leader in the metaverse. But, like, we... You've been you've been passing out those mugs Yeah. With Cantor, Woo, and Con or whatever it is. I'm just sort of sick of talking about it. Ready for talking about everything.
Kara Swisher · 1:02:58
You just you just wanted things to happen. That's what you want. Right?
Scott Galloway · 1:03:03
Well, the problem is, you know, they they wait us out. Right? They wait till there's another tragedy. They wait till there's another thing that distracts us, but they keep pounding away on the front lines with their lobbyists and their money, and and then the fires subside.
Kara Swisher · 1:03:17
No. No. May I make another point?
Scott Galloway · 1:03:19
Yes. Go ahead,
Kara Swisher · 1:03:20
Kerr. Sooner or later, a fox runs out of tricks Oh. And gets caught.
Scott Galloway · 1:03:26
Don't sell peanuts to feed the monkey. What was that?
Kara Swisher · 1:03:29
Don't sell peanuts. Don't sell your soul to feed peanuts to the monkeys. No. There you go. There you go. This will happen. I think this will happen. I think everyone's ready. And I... This is what happened with Microsoft. It went on for years and years. It seemed endless that Bill Gates would run us all, and then he didn't. So I'm just saying. Things happen. Things have their time. This is... We're not China. This is how it works. Something's coming. I don't know what it is, but it is gonna be antitrust. Alright. That's my song from West.
Scott Galloway · 1:03:57
What is going on? First call, now you're singing show tunes? Jesus. What is going on here? Who are you, and what have you done with Kara Swisher?
Kara Swisher · 1:04:07
My voice is back. That's why it's almost back.
Scott Galloway · 1:04:09
Yeah. There you go.
Kara Swisher · 1:04:09
The next prediction comes from Abdul El Sayed.
Guest · 1:04:15
Hey, Karen, Scott. This is doctor Abdul El Sayed, physician, epidemiologist, former Detroit health commissioner, and host of Crooked Media's health and society podcast, America Dissected. I predict that by the end of this quarter, we'll have seen a massive reduction in COVID nineteen cases, hospitalizations, and deaths, and that the Delta wave will largely be behind us. Let me explain why. Even though there's a safe and effective vaccine out there, nearly thirty percent of eligible people have chosen not to take it. Instead, a substantial proportion are picking up some immunity they're just doing it the hard way by way of infection. Every time someone's infected and recovers, they pick up some natural immunity. Don't get me wrong, that immunity is much more specific to a given strain and less durable. But it still protects that individual for a short period of time, inching us all closer to that herd immunity that is so critical to keeping COVID at bay. You know what would really make my prediction come true though? If people quit messing around and got their vaccine. Either way, let's hope I'm right about this so we can all have a happy holiday.
Kara Swisher · 1:05:11
A lot of people don't see... I just read an article about... And I heard a mean you were never gonna reach it. But but I see that... I mean, you know, you can you can beat this thing one way or another. It's tons of needless deaths and hospitalizations and strain on the health care system that shuts other people who have other illnesses out, or you can just get the fucking vaccine and stop it.
Scott Galloway · 1:05:33
Yeah.
Kara Swisher · 1:05:33
Like, what is the what is the... People don't mind the cost either to them or other people. That really that really chaps my ass, I'll tell you that.
Scott Galloway · 1:05:41
But to his prediction, and you're you're scared to say this out loud. And that's where I think the veracity of this prediction comes in. And that is not... And I had as a doctor, Syed, I had him on the Prop two show. A very impressive guy and a comer. A lot of people, really thoughtful people, say the same thing, that this is we're beginning, if you will, to see the burnout of the virus. And Scott Gottlieb, former FDA commissioner, I think the CEO of Pfizer and these are responsible people who don't make those types of statements without real data. But what they're saying is, the problem is we're getting there the most painful way possible. But they think that there's a lot of smart people saying they think this is the last wave, if you will, and then it's going to start. Eventually, these viruses do burn out, at least in history. It's just it's just a pain we're gonna incur to get there.
Kara Swisher · 1:06:38
I think that's absolutely right. I... Of course, they do. With with the... We're still not having the 1918 Spanish flu. But it's the... It's how we do it. Right? When we dig... We just... There there are thousands of people that... Thousands and tens of thousands of people that didn't need to die. Not many more than that. And and the hospitalizations, I... If I read another story about some guy that had a heart attack or a minor thing, a relatively easy to treat thing and couldn't get in the hospital because of that particular moment, that particular state, you know, was full of people who hadn't been vaccinated. Like, give me... That's... And it'll pass. Of course, those people will get out of the hospital. But what was that cost? Why did that guy have to die? It's like... It's it's it's it's... What's it called? Collateral damage. Like, why? Like, that's the part... We... We're so easy to push that away. I just
Scott Galloway · 1:07:26
I was thinking about I was thinking about solutions for the next, you know, enormous tragedy of commons. And one of the great prophylactics against these tragedies is film and camera. And that is a big component that ended the Vietnam War was that journalists were allowed to go into cameras and film the horror that is war. And then the American government said, you know what? That's a bad rap. Get rid of the cameras. And then when we go into Iraq and hundreds of thousands of people die going to Afghanistan, they don't allow cameras. And we don't see up close the whore. And I I think that they're... I think something could... It really could have had a material impact is if we'd figured out a way to blur out the faces and had sites that showed what was going on in ICUs around the nation.
Kara Swisher · 1:08:12
Well, they had a few of those. Right? And they were incredibly depressing.
Scott Galloway · 1:08:15
Well, they should be. They should be horrifying.
Kara Swisher · 1:08:17
And one... And it's like Upton Sinclair. It's like Upton Sinclair. It's like, you know, people... You know, Jacob Rees with with children working way back with photographs. You know? This is what it... Look at it and see. One of the things that's driving me crazy is, like, a lot of these sort of VCs that are, you know, what I consider anti vaxx, they're like, oh, Florida's going up. I'm like, yes. But the cost. They don't care about the cost. Right? They don't care who died or who got affected. They're like, well, it turned out. Of course, it's gonna turn out. Everyone knows that. It's what it costs to get there.
Scott Galloway · 1:08:49
Mhmm.
Kara Swisher · 1:08:50
And finally, Shira Frankel, coauthor of An Inside Facebook's Battle for Domination on Facebook.
Guest · 1:08:58
Hey, Karen Scott Schurafrenkel. My prediction is the next year is likely gonna mean a lot of time spent in Washington for Mark Zuckerberg, who, as we know from people close to him, has always joked that he is allergic to the nation's capital, to Washington DC. But lawmakers seem incredibly energized by the recent reports from The Wall Street Journal regarding the harm that Facebook causes to teens. And while antitrust regulation and, you know, the the the looming question of whether Facebook is a monopoly are something that could take years for them to sort out, lawmakers can act very quickly when they want to on issues like are young people, especially teens and preteens, safe online? So I imagine that the next year is going to be a difficult one for Facebook and that Mark might want to reconsider his feelings on Washington.
Kara Swisher · 1:09:49
I think that that that he's gonna have to spend most of his time. He doesn't like spending his time on this stuff, and he's gonna spend most of his time on this. This is the era that Bill Gates moved into and stayed for a very long time, and I agree. Historically, this is where we are, much faster for Mark Zuckerberg than Bill Gates, but this is where he's gonna spend his time. And that means the already not... He says so many compares to Bill Gates, by the way, you know, in terms of a product that many people didn't consider innovative, etcetera, etcetera. And the obstreperousness, Bill Gates was quite obstreperous. And so that's what she's talking about is that he's moved into this era. I think that's a 100% right. What do you think?
Scott Galloway · 1:10:28
Well, it's interesting. What senator Klobuchar was really interesting. And she said there's different forms of
Kara Swisher · 1:10:32
purpose. And you
Scott Galloway · 1:10:33
can't imagine that when Dzoc is sitting before a group of people who are elevated I mean, any room he walks into, him or Sheryl Sandberg walks into and this is what happens. And this is the arrogance of CEOs and how they become vulnerable. And how we, as people when we recognize success, become vulnerable. And that is we ultimately accidentally and unintentionally surround ourselves with people who just want to figure out what we think and get And there you end up surrounding yourself with a bunch of people who agree with you. You're not used to standing in front, sitting in front of people who can interrupt you, who are there to make you look stupid, who are there to call you a liar because you are a liar. So that's got to be a really uncomfortable experience. And he's got to spend at least five days with these basically getting just like gangbanged by all these communications consultants. Say, when they ask this, slow down, look thoughtful, repeat the question, say, senator, this is an important question, and try and run out the clock. And then when you get really panicked, say, I need to get back to you. I mean, he's got so much... It can't be fun. There's no upside to this for him. But quite frankly, I'm beginning to believe... So testimony of Francis Haugan is worthwhile. More testimony from Jack or Cheryl or Mark, quite frankly, it's just a cheap thrill. It's empty calories. We know they're lying. We know they don't have our best interests at heart. It's time it's time for senators to do press releases saying we have just passed
Kara Swisher · 1:12:00
this bill. I think you're right.
Scott Galloway · 1:12:02
I think it's enough already. The theater is great. The theater is great. Enough. Let's let's let's move to it.
Kara Swisher · 1:12:08
Well, she said that. She said that. She did say that. I agree. I think it's a really interesting time. I think he might get tired of... This is when Bill Gates left Microsoft, you know, despite his incredible power over it, was after this when he realized he wasn't... You know? And he could go off and make things. You know? I know Mark Mark has an idea that he's a little more innovative than he is rather than a borrower, which I think he does well. And so I think that the driver of the car is someone... I was texting with someone pretty prominent in that in that... From that company or former person. And they were like, I I finally realized the driver of the car is the problem. We need a new driver of that car. And I would agree. I would agree. I think you're right to talk about that. I don't agree there's gonna be a perp walk that you talked about. I think it's more that senator Klobuchar talked about.
Scott Galloway · 1:12:56
You know what I think? I I actually think there is gonna be a pert block. I am not sure it's gonna be one of the the big names, though. That's the thing. I think they'll... I think they're gonna... I mean, when they go after them, they try and find someone mid level usually to get them to flip, to put pressure on them. Right? It's gonna be very interesting. But I also wanna acknowledge the majority of people I've spoken to
Kara Swisher · 1:13:15
agree with you. Maybe I can see it. But by the way, they also are gonna... They're gonna dig their heels in. I have gotten... I may... We may just publish them. I have asked every major Facebook executive for an interview, all declines. I'm just gonna publish all the emails to show you. Like, why don't you talk to them, Kara? I go, oh, we ask. So it's really quite astonishing that none of them will will talk to me. And and they give the bullshit reason that I'm mean to them. Like, too bad. They can deal with a mean lady.
Scott Galloway · 1:13:41
Oh, you know what? You you nailed your prediction literally on queue. You said they're gonna start needling and trying to undermine her credibility. And literally on queue the next day, I forget his name, Andy Stone, the latest person that basically arbitrage his reputation for millions of dollars, is saying, just to be clear, the document's stolen. First off, these documents aren't stolen. When the SEC grants you whistleblower status, that means you didn't steal anything. That means you're trying to help the world or help the government or comply with laws. And as a result of that, you decided to turn over evidence of the wrongdoing. They aren't... These documents are not stolen.
Kara Swisher · 1:14:12
Oh, I know what they're doing.
Scott Galloway · 1:14:14
Yep. You exactly were... You're exactly right. The Trump thing. Like, oh, she was never really in a decision making, yeah, decision level. You were... It was literally on queue. The next day, they said they did they did exactly what you said they were gonna
Kara Swisher · 1:14:26
I hate being right about these assholes.
Scott Galloway · 1:14:28
When they constantly say their go to is, what this shows is we desperately need regulation. Talk to any elected representative about how Facebook is actually embracing regulation in Washington. They're like, they talk a big game, and they wanna shape it to their advantage, which I, quite frankly, I think they did in Europe. I think this regulation has ended up helping them in Europe. But the notion that they want a warm embrace of regulate... Like, help us. We know
Kara Swisher · 1:14:54
Throw me in that prior patch. Don't throw me in that prior patch. Anyway, senator Klobuchar is on to you. Anyway, that's the show. We'll be back on Tuesday for more. Scott, read us out.
— Predictions segment ends —
Scott Galloway · 1:15:06
Today's show is produced by Lara Naaman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Intertaud engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts. Or if you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or, frankly, wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Fox Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. Mothers against Mark and Sheryl, MAMS.
[Ad break]
