Pivot · Sep 25, 2020

Tesla’s “Battery Day”, the DOJ prepares for Google, and Scott’s prediction on “algorithmic e-commerce”

Automatic transcript of the end of the episode, from 26:28. Speakers are labeled by software and may contain errors. Highlighted passages are Scott’s predictions.

Kara Swisher · 26:28 Really prepared it and really put the resources into it. Same thing with the FTC. If they really cared, they would have funded the FTC properly. If they really cared, they would have really talked about this instead of talking about tuna cans. Like, you know what I mean? Or whatever ridiculous bullshit they talk about. And so just like the executive order around 02:30, just like this TikTok thing, it could be another debacle, and they then missed the shot at big tech. They're missing the shot at China right now. They missed the shot at executive Agree. 02:30 from. And if they miss this shot... Because they're incompetent, and by the way, they're incompetent, that's really the problem. If they don't have the buy in from those real career justice department officials because Bill Barr has decided to to become this strange henchman of of Donald Trump. That's my problem with them. So I like that they're doing it. I just want them to do it well so that it doesn't fail. And and so it... We'll see. And I think... What what do you think Google is doing right now? I mean, they hadn't seen this coming for quite a decade. Scott Galloway · 27:25 Google is lining up. They're testing their armaments in Spain. They're getting the... They're fine tuning, their Messerschmitts, their Panzer tanks. They are lining up so many resources at the border. The scariest thing about this, to your point, is the DOJ, the initial brief that they're gonna file is is supposedly has 40 lawyers on it. That is nothing. That is literally kissing in the ocean of this battle. Kara Swisher · 27:45 Too many have left. Scott Galloway · 27:46 If they don't do it well, if they don't get momentum behind this, they risk the state AGs not joining in. Kara Swisher · 27:52 The other thing is people aren't really mad at Google or Amazon. That's gonna be one of the biggest thing is people like these companies. Right? They sort of have a... They they have a vague... They don't like Facebook so much, and they have a vague sense that there's problems around tech, but they haven't built a case that why we should hate the... I mean, I think one of the things Microsoft was well disliked when they took on that case. It was... You know, including by the industry. They'll have to have compelling testimony by the Yelps and the whatever, the Fitbits or whoever it is. And so that's... They've gotta build a PR case out here. And, you know, when it's coming at you from Bill Barr, anything that that guy says, I'm like, lying, lying, lying. And so that's one of one of the things. I just... I don't even wanna look forward to his press conference because I'll just be like, he's... I just can't look at him. Right? You know? So that's one of their big issues, and they're they're so well liked, these companies. And I think I wouldn't discount that. Scott Galloway · 28:42 Back on that. I think there's a general unease around big tech, and you have a coalition By of Kara Swisher · 28:46 normal... By by the normals, not by you and me. Scott Galloway · 28:49 By the norm... I do think that people have an uneasy feeling Uneasy. About income inequality and don't... Can't exactly connect the dots, but do have a feeling that big tech's dominance is not a good thing for, America. And you've seen that all 50 states support antitrust action and have formed a coalition against Google. And that's Kara Swisher · 29:11 Agreed. Scott Galloway · 29:11 You know, that's red... That's Mississippi to Oregon. Everybody's like, yeah. This is too much. Kara Swisher · 29:15 Be seeing, like, here's the honeypot. Like, come on. They're not necessarily Scott Galloway · 29:19 You think it's money? Kara Swisher · 29:20 I do. I just I I I just think it's gonna be a much more difficult thing, and I'm worried that this administration is incompetent to the task even if they're doing it. And they've proven to be so sloppy everywhere else, sloppy and political, and so both those things together. It'll be interesting to see what... Who will take proactive action. I would think Apple might. Like, even though they've publicly been sort of insulting the Epic Games, Tim Sweeney, and that company, they've been pretty aggressive pushing back. I think someone... Some some company like Apple is gonna be like, alright. Here's what we'll do. Like, here's here's... Throw us in the briar patch kinda thing. Yes, please. And I think that's the smarter move here. I'm not sure what Google can do except fight it. Right? Then make them prove their case. That's that's... Think they can Scott Galloway · 30:08 Oh, they'll throw everything. Kara Swisher · 30:09 They can... That's what I mean. I think if I was Google, I would be a little bit like, no. No. Scott Galloway · 30:13 They've already said no. They they they haven't said no. They've said nine. I mean, they are coming for these guys. Like, are you kidding? I I would hate to go up against Google. And everybody, when I met with senator Kara Swisher · 30:24 Sundar seemed so nice. Scott Galloway · 30:25 When I met with senator... They all seem nice. That's a point. Kara Swisher · 30:27 No. They don't. Scott Galloway · 30:28 When I met with senator Warner and we're... And I'm like, you gotta go out Kara Swisher · 30:32 to your learning meetings with the with the the people of you you go up there a lot. You're always with those guys. Scott Galloway · 30:39 Well, they they get it. These guys get it. I actually always feel better about our country when I meet with our elected representatives. Yeah. Senator Warner, I was with his two top legislative aides, and they said, well, what would you do? And I'm like, you gotta have to go anticompetitive identity, Section two thirty. And you could just see the age just, like, lowered their head, and they're like, We're outgunned. To try and take on these things, we have a lot you know, we would just if we even breathe that way, we're poking a bear the size of Godzilla. Yeah. And that's the problem, is that a key step to tyranny is when government no longer becomes a countervailing force but a co conspirator. And we talk about this unholy alliance between, or this unwritten agreement between the Zuck and Trump, where Zuck has basically said, Okay, don't break us up, don't fuck with us, and I'll continue to weaponize the plat let you weaponize the platform. You know what was a really unholy alliance from about, I don't know, 2008 to 2016? The alliance between Obama and Google. Kara Swisher · 31:37 I agree. Scott Galloway · 31:38 And we as liberals don't like to talk about it, but the reality is Kara Swisher · 31:41 Hello. Scott Galloway · 31:42 I've Kara Swisher. Other than K. Swisher. Kara Swisher · 31:44 That with Eric Schmidt and everything else, it was ridiculous. Scott Galloway · 31:46 By the way, who's interviewing Eric Schmidt for his podcast this You? Kara Swisher · 31:49 Oh, he's all over the place. That's Scott Galloway · 32:06 but there was a very strong relationship between the Obama campaign and Google. And my sense is Obama told his DOJ kind of, you know, back off of Google because this has blown by any reasonable litmus test or antitrust investigation. Should have happened a decade ago. And now, this will be a key test. Have we been overrun? Your point is that we need to do it well because we only get one bite at the apple here. Don't screw this up. The good news is it's not going to take very I mean, there's just not that much time between... It's unlikely they can Kara Swisher · 32:37 Yeah. They've waited a long Scott Galloway · 32:38 foul the waters in thirty days. Right? Kara Swisher · 32:41 Yeah. Yeah. This is gonna go on. It's a question whether the Biden administration has... If it wins or the Trump administration has the wherewithal, they'll just drop it. That's my feeling. They're just gonna drop it, and we're gonna be in the exact I same Scott Galloway · 32:52 have a question for you. Yeah. Senator Harris, is she... Do you see her Complex. Kara Swisher · 32:58 Complex, my In Scott Galloway · 32:59 her relationship with Big Tech, do you see her coming in and being an apologist for Big Tech because she's taken money there or that she'll go after them? What do you think is gonna happen there? Kara Swisher · 33:10 She has gone after them in a minor way, I would say, and she... And she's also been friendly with them. You know what I mean? She knows them all. She's from, I wouldn't say friends, but she's friendly with them. And you would be. You're a center from California. You're gonna be friendly with the tech industry. Yeah. She never goes for the jugular, and she goes for jugulars, and she doesn't go for the jugular here. She goes around the around the edges, which are important. The edges are... The privacy stuff's important, but she doesn't go for the this is terrible kind of stuff. Although she tried during one of the debates around Twitter, if you remember, and it didn't land. Like, we have to stop Twitter. There was a thing where she Scott Galloway · 33:42 I don't remember that. Kara Swisher · 33:43 She did that. She went she went, like, about we have to do this, and it just didn't... Nobody cared. And that's the other thing is it just doesn't... You know what polls well? Health care. You know what polls well? Saying you're gonna, like, overturn abortion rights. What Nancy Pelosi actually did point out to me, and I hadn't thought about this, although it's kind of basic, was the Trump administration had the senate in the house for two years, and they didn't do any abortion legislation. Right? Like, why not? She goes, when they had power, they did nothing. It's all for the base. It's all noise. It's all, like Scott Galloway · 34:13 They're not real. My sense is Republicans aren't really... At least I've always Kara Swisher · 34:16 felt use it to Scott Galloway · 34:17 get everyone off exercise and Kara Swisher · 34:19 then leave it to the courts. Scott Galloway · 34:20 That's right. But they don't they don't wanna be the ones that actually make it difficult for your your your daughter or Right. Or to actually get... You know, have family planning. Kara Swisher · 34:27 So I think Kamala Harris will not be... She does suffer around the edges, and I don't know what would prompt her to do anything else. I I... You know, I don't know. I don't know what what... You have to be prompted. Right? So... And it's not her nature. She's very, canny strategically. You know? So it just doesn't... What does it get her? I can see... I I think everything that she does is that. What does it get her? And so we'll see. We'll see. But we'll... But Google will surely fight back hard. And who's gonna be... Last one. Who's gonna be the next one who's gonna get... It's gotta be Amazon. Facebook, they'll never touch. Well, maybe the the Biden administration will will do that, but not anybody else. Scott Galloway · 35:03 I think it's... I I actually do think it's Facebook because I think there'll be more political wind or or support. And I think Amazon is a tough one because the consumer harm is much more difficult to prove there, and they have a very... If you look at their respective industries, whether it's the cloud, whether it's retail, they don't have the same type of market share that these other firms to make an easier market. And the one that'll go last, it'll be regulation, but it won't be antitrust, it'll be Apple. But that's a rational argument, and I have not seen rational constructs be injected into any of this so far. Kara Swisher · 35:39 So I think big tech once again slides away. Slides away. Yeah. I do think some of the emails of both Google and especially Facebook, just even the ones that David Sicilian put out were like, oh, that's uncomfortable. Scott Galloway · 35:52 But that doesn't mean example. What are the kinds of that? Kara Swisher · 35:54 Know land grab, and we're gonna neutralize people, like, idea that that that they're trying to take out competitors. I think that's... He was starting to go in the direction I go. It's like, look what they're doing to American innovation. Look what they're doing to small companies. That's the case you make. And Mhmm. He was starting to release those, and we'll see, you know, small businesses can't... That's, like, that's a winning argument versus these people. These big... They're the richest people in the world. Jeff Bezos has $200,000,000. That's, you know, Mark Zuckerberg is is ruining democracy. That's the way you go, and I think it takes a lot of guts for, someone to do that. We'll see. I think Scott Galloway · 36:29 representative Cicillini oversaw or chaired the best hearing he's Kara Swisher · 36:33 had in a long time. Scott Galloway · 36:34 He just needs to stop lying. He's he's a total Joey from Ronkonkoma, Long Island. That guy's not from Maryland or wherever he says he's from. Is that guy Long Island or what? Don't know. Guy's, like, the really smart guy on Long Kara Swisher · 36:46 from somewhere else, Scott. Where are you from? Scott Galloway · 36:48 Oh, come on. Amy Klobucher from Minnesota. Give me a break. Kara Swisher · 36:51 She's from Minnesota. She's she's not Where is she from? Scott Galloway · 36:54 Real estate broker Joan from Atlanta. She's the best real estate broker in Kara Swisher · 36:58 Rockette. From? Where where do you call from? As my people from West Virginia would say, where do you call from? Scott Galloway · 37:03 I don't know. I haven't really thought about that. Kara Swisher · 37:06 My people come from West Virginia. My people And from Virginia. Scott Galloway · 37:10 That's not that's not where I would have gone, West Virginia. Kara Swisher · 37:13 Well, I can't help him. That's where my dad was born. Scott Galloway · 37:15 Yeah. There you go. Kara Swisher · 37:16 My family is there. My my dad's side of the family. I don't see them Scott Galloway · 37:19 as West Virginia, Kara? Kara Swisher · 37:20 Morgantown and then the Hills And Hollers. I'll tell you. I met a couple of cousins up in there. Morgantown. Yeah. Morgantown, West Virginia. That's the fancy town of West Virginia. Scott Galloway · 37:29 They made a stranger face when they met you, Kara. They're like, who the fuck is this? Kara Swisher · 37:33 Yeah. They did. I had... That's where I had my famous She Scott Galloway · 37:36 writes about Google. Kara Swisher · 37:38 No. No. That was right. We had some cousin fest in in... A while back, and, it was during the the... They were... It was the first Trump thing, and they have all been Trumpies. And they were like, Carrie, you sure did the... You know, our our candidate won. We're winning. This and that. We won this and that. And I said, you know what? Let me just review it for you. I said, I'm... Like, I make 4,000 times more than you guys do. I'm gonna benefit from this from a financial point of view, and you're gonna get screwed because that's the way it's gonna happen. And so you really won. Good luck. Scott Galloway · 38:10 I find that people from West Virginia respond really well to their cousins coming down. Kara Swisher · 38:15 Yeah. I'm a city fan. Scott Galloway · 38:16 Cousins coming down from New York and talking about how much more money they make than them. I find that that's just a way to warm yourself to their hearts. Kara Swisher · 38:23 Like a sore winner. I just didn't like a sore winner. And I was like, I sore winner. I am... No. I've lost. Scott Galloway · 38:28 Money than you. Kara Swisher · 38:29 I've lost. No. Scott Galloway · 38:29 You're the sore winner. Kara Swisher · 38:30 Only pointing out that they were not exploring the entire situation as they... And I, of course, would be happy to pay more taxes in that regard. Anyway... Okay. Scott Galloway · 38:38 You should absolutely begin every email with sick of all this winning, question mark. Love from love from DC. Kara Swisher · 38:44 Sick of all this winning. Some lovely relationships there. Anyway, let's go on to a listener mail question. Scott Galloway · 38:50 You've got you've got I can't believe I'm gonna be a mailman. You've got mail. Speaker · 38:54 Hey, Karen Scott. This is Rebecca, your producer. I'm coming to you from my studio apartment in Brooklyn where I've been producing pivot since March. With the Supreme Court top of mind, what issues in tech and data privacy do we expect to see coming up to the bench? Do you expect a conservative leaning court to deal with those issues differently? And if the Democrats do take the Senate in November, how will that affect Silicon Valley? By the way, if you're a listener and working in tech and want to flag an issue that you think is underreported, email us at Pivett@VoxMedia.com. Thanks, guys. Kara Swisher · 39:31 I think if the Democrats take the senate in November, I think they'll be tougher on Silicon Valley. I don't know if it'll be effective. I mean, in this interview with, Nancy Pelosi, she called Facebook disreputable. She said they were gonna take action. I don't know. She has to have power to do so, so we'll see. It depends if they... We'll see. I don't know. There's nothing really coming down the pipe except privacy legislation, antitrust fines, stronger FTC. With the courts, I don't think there's any cases that I'm aware of that are that are coming up up from below. I think it'll be all cultural cases, culture and society cases. I don't know. Scott, what do you think? Scott Galloway · 40:06 Yeah. Don't I don't... I'm not a judicial scholar. Actually, I'm not a scholar on anything, but, I think this happens most likely, I've been saying this for a while, from the state AGs, specifically California, New York, and also from Europe. But I'm hopeful, and obviously, I think a Democratic administration would be I mean, you kind of hit the nail on the head. To pick your issues across Trump is a little bit of a, you know, a kabuki dance because they're just so incompetent. And they have I think, you know, the trade war made a lot of sense, at least from an intention standpoint or the reasons behind it, but it's been so poorly executed. I actually think that banning TikTok, if you had decided to ban over time all Chinese internet companies, I think there was legitimacy around that concern. There was risk, you know, legitimate risk concerns. But they've just been so bad at this that, you know, the boring stuff is what changes America. The number of judges at every level that have been appointed over the last four years have probably been the most damaging thing if you're a progressive over the long term. Yes. But when you think about it, he's been talking about... I mean, my favorite, we're overturning Obamacare, and we have a new health care plan. There's no health care plan anywhere. I mean, they don't have... Health care is really hard and requires smart people to do smart work, and that's just not the hard work the Trump administration wants to do right now. And to... I don't know. I don't feel... It's so hard for us to imagine a Trump admin... You know, we have such PTSD or whatever you call it or Trump syndrome. I just... It's hard for me to even envision what might happen if Trump is reelected, but the only thing that Kara Swisher · 41:42 protests for four years. Scott Galloway · 41:44 Well, to a certain extent, the the Trump... The the the... I don't wanna say the saving grace, but one of the things that makes the Trump administration a little less scary is their incompetence on certain things because they don't make a lot of progress around stuff. A more competent Kara Swisher · 41:58 Well, do Scott Galloway · 41:58 little Cheney was both scary and very competent. I think Dick Cheney was scarier in some ways than Donald Trump because he was very competent and smart and elegant and smooth and understand his constituencies. So, anyways, what are your thoughts? Kara Swisher · 42:11 I think that that they... It's a it's a bipartisan and not nonpartisan, but a bipartisan issue about big tech. I think that's one thing for sure. And so that's that's where there's a good chance something can get done, and and why not? But it's why would you do it? First of all, everyone's got to clean up this country, the economic recovery. There's so much stuff to happen. No one's gonna get to it. This is kind of a a... It's not a must do. It's a would like to do. And so that's the issue is there's so many other things to fight about, and, just recovery is gonna be the first couple of years of whoever or else more destruction if it's Donald Trump, I think. The second thing, the only area that I think would be interesting is this this this access to cell phones and encryption. I think that's a really... That was a really interesting thing. And as Rebecca's pointed out in our notes here, when the Supreme Court ruled on the warrant to access cell phone location data, all the dissenters in the case were Republicans. So they're very... That is... The encryption could be an interesting situation. And that they... Most Republicans tend to lean the Jim Comey way, which was, much... Was much more hand over your stuff, kind of stuff. And so that's... That would be the area, and that's a big that is a big fight, and that is a big deal. And so I would suspect that would be something that's important. Otherwise, you know, if if there's nothing rising up about privacy, there's so many other issues. There's gonna be fights about abortion. There's gonna be fight about pushing back gay rights in favor of religious rights. So I think we're gonna be spending a lot of time arguing about stuff we argued about in the nineteen eighties still. And and big tech's gonna sail right out, unfortunately, in a lot of things. It's gonna take, as Scott said, regulation and lawmaking, legislating to handle this and not the courts. So there you have it. Alright, Scott. One more quick break. We'll be back, for predictions. I hope you have a good one. Scott Galloway · 44:04 Okay. [Ad break] — Predictions segment begins — Kara Swisher · 44:56 Okay, Scott. It's been another wildly unpredictable week. We've got the debates coming up, etcetera, etcetera. But still, can you predict something for tech and business? Something? Something? Scott Galloway · 45:06 Sure. So I'm fascinated by, a couple years ago, began talking about and made up a word called Rundle. The recurring revenue bundles were gonna be this incredibly concept, and that has played out, and it continues to play out. I think there's another concept on the horizon. Kara Swisher · 45:24 New word? Scott Galloway · 45:25 Yeah, or a new term, and that is I am fascinated with TikTok. And I'm trying to think about, in contrast to something like Quibi, why TikTok is so powerful. And I think it's a collision of a variety of trends. And the first is, and most importantly, is signal liquidity. And that is if I watch a one hour show, well, give me a moment. Kara Swisher · 45:45 Right, okay. Scott Galloway · 45:46 So signal liquidity, you get about two points of signal or two signals when you watch Netflix. A, you pick that program, B, you watch it all the way through, and that informs the algorithm or the recommendation engine. Whereas when I spend an hour on TikTok between likes, comments, the amount of time I watch it, and the fact that they're fifteen to thirty seconds in duration, I get somewhere between ByteDance gets somewhere between eight hundred and sixteen hundred signals within the same hour period, meaning the inputs and the calibration that feed, or the inputs and signals that feed the algorithm give it just such incredible calibration that it can move to exactly what you want much, much faster than any other media company. So if you think about e commerce, e commerce has an algorithm that sits on top, including how to get that product faster to you, what else to recommend based on what you put in your basket. Right. There's pretty strong kind of algorithmic e commerce to date, not really strong. And then algorithmic media has gone crazy, whether it's Netflix or TikTok, whether it's Facebook, whether it's Google. The media companies that have really gone to a trillion dollars have two things: they leverage free content from their consumer base, and sitting on top of it is an incredible algorithm. I think and by the way, think there's more than 50% likelihood this deal never closed but I think that TikTok or the Trojan horse or the sleeping innovation here, the sleeping giant in this deal is Walmart and TikTok. And that is, if Walmart can partner with TikTok to figure out a way to gather signal liquidity around specific consumer categories, I would start with grocery and then feed people images, videos saying, What is the produce? What are the types of meals? What is your weight class economically? Right, I get it, yeah. And then all of a sudden, they start zeroing in on, Okay, we're going to send you three boxes. We're going to set up cold storage outside your house, two boxes of the brands and things we think you want and love. Third box is empty. Put the stuff back in the box you don't want, which, by the way, is more signals that they can calibrate on, and then use voice. They'd have to partner with a voice, probably Google, because they don't want to compete with Amazon directly to get more and more signals. And we may move to where I think the world is heading. That's what I call zero click ordering. Everyone talks about That's one Kara Swisher · 48:03 finally getting to the word, zero click Scott Galloway · 48:05 ordering. It's not, that's not my word. Anyways, I think Walmart and TikTok could potentially, potentially introduce this new field that I'm calling ACOM, and that's algorithmic commerce. Kara Swisher · 48:16 Oh. Scott Galloway · 48:16 Which is basically zero click, and that is fulfilling and sending you products before you, The before you order same way I have to go on Quibi, I have to learn about something, then I have to pick it. No more of that shit. That model doesn't work anymore. Kara Swisher · 48:29 Okay, Scott Galloway · 48:29 eight know, this is, I get all the groceries that 90% are accurate, and even some of them, 10 or 20%, I'm surprised and delighted by. Never would have picked on my own because they Kara Swisher · 48:40 So know special surprise box. Scott Galloway · 48:42 Right, they know before I know it that I'm really into Labradors, which apparently I am, according to TikTok. But I think that the reason that Walmart is taking a 7.5% stake here, people say, What's about social commerce? That's a big snooze. Walmart can buy ads on TikTok on their own without owning 7.5%. The real opportunity for Walmart is to leapfrog Amazon and go from one click commerce to zero commerce in this new field I would call aicom or algorithmic commerce. Kara Swisher · 49:07 I like it. I like it. Now interestingly, you're talking about the deal. I know a little bit. I was gonna write a column this week, but I got super busy with this new podcast. But one of the things is they they... All the... A lot of this... They're worried the people involved in the deal that it's gonna come through, especially as Trump keeps weighing in stupidly, like, especially around that museum of propaganda. None of them wanted were knowledgeable about that. And they... The thing they were gonna create was a STEM thing for an underprivileged kids. That's what they were trying to do. And then Trump weighs in on the how to teach real American history, which they were like, no. Scott Galloway · 49:38 That's a weird one. Kara Swisher · 49:39 I know. Of course, Trump keeps doing this. So that's the thing. And he keeps saying he's... He blessed it and this and that. And so they're trying to stay quiet so he'll go away essentially. And and and they're sort of embarrassed by it, but they won't say that publicly. And so I think, you know... And then there's the whole China... Whether the Chinese will go along with this and and who's... Who owns what, and they can pretend which one owns it. But I believe in this... In the way they're doing the the watering down and the dilutions, it will have mostly... It will have a majority US investors. And when the Chinese figure that out, they won't let it happen. Right? I know Bygenz is saying a Scott Galloway · 50:15 head fake. It's about who controls the algorithm. If you look at Big Kara Swisher · 50:18 Tech Exactly. That's what I Scott Galloway · 50:20 one of the problems with the markets is corporate governance is supposed to mimic governance, and that is, you know, one person, one vote. And we've bastardized it with redlining and gerrymandering and the electoral college, but generally speaking, the person that gets power, the person who has authority, is the person that gets the most individual votes. And corporate governance is supposed to be one share, one vote. But big tech, because everyone was so horny to get these deals done, VCs initially, and this kind of started with Google agreed to give Larry and Sergei control of the despite the fact they didn't have economic control. So the Sulzberger's, the Ford family, own between 416% of the company but control it. That is unhealthy. When you disarticulate accountability and risk from authority, it ends up perverting So the decision making what we have, again, with big tech is they don't have economic control, but they have control. And the fact that we're getting some cold comfort that by the time we do the math around all the dilution that American companies, including General Atlantic and Sequoia Mhmm. Might own combined 52%, meaning we don't need to worry, that has nothing to fucking do with it. Agree. It's whoever's in charge with... Of the algorithm and can influence the programming and the intent behind the humans programming the algorithm. Kara Swisher · 51:34 To be Oracle. Scott Galloway · 51:35 And that's gonna be... Yeah. But Oracle just be the cloud. They they... Kara Swisher · 51:38 It is still other things to it. I... They're not incompetent into this task in terms of security, but it's not their it's not their area of expertise. The question is they weren't gonna... They're not gonna have anything to do with the actual running of the content of this service. They don't they don't... They know they don't have the expertise. So that will be left to the company, and therefore, if they're using that algorithm, how can they really... You're right. It's just it's not who has the most... It's who controls the algorithm. We've talked about this. Who controls the code? And if it continues to be Chinese generated code, that's gonna be very difficult to to differentiate. And I think the the I think the two problems here is, one, it's a global... This... To create this TikTok global, it's a... It was a global company with so many different owners Mhmm. You know, including from Europe and everywhere else, as I said before, that it's really hard to it's hard to buy it outright, and it's hard to run it like this. And so that's the problem. Like, that that... That's the problem ultimately. And so Scott Galloway · 52:35 I I... I've come full... I've gone foxed on this. TikTok scares the shit out of me. If people... If Facebook can be weaponized by the Chinese and the Russians because they have a group of American shareholders and management that are more concerned with their economic well-being than the well-being of the Commonwealth, then what on earth would stop TikTok from somebody in China and the party there deciding, you know what, every time the pandemic rages on in The US, they cede advantage and geopolitical leverage to us. So let's start putting out a lot of content and let's favor content that begins to raise concerns and insecurity around a vaccine. Right. They could absolutely do that out of China. And if you think they can't do it, Jesus Christ, look at what Facebook and Google managed to do with very Kara Swisher · 53:20 little Chinese trust this. I don't... But you're right. The influence part. You know, when we talked to Alex, the three things were access to data, which he wasn't as worried about, possible backdoors, which he's like, look. That could happen on any part of the equation where... Because so much is made in China. And then was influence. Scott Galloway · 53:38 Was Propaganda machine. Kara Swisher · 53:39 Propaganda and influence. And that is really... And the problem is even though Trump's trying to do this museum of propaganda or this foundation of propaganda, he... We're not good at it. We're just not good at it the way they are. And we have to understand who we're playing with. And they... As you said, they wait it out, and they... And this is the... It goes back to the same thing you were talking about with with the Google antitrust is they have the ability to wait wait everyone out. The Chinese have the ability to wait the government out, and the government is so twitchy and incompetent in dealing with it. And under this particular administration, everything is for the press release or a political thing and not it's become political and not policy. That's the issue. It's it's not policy. And so when you're handing the president The United States graphs to make him understand with his name on it, you're not gonna make good policy. It's just not gonna happen. And, I... And then the Biden administration's gonna spend a lot of time cleaning up if they win. That's what's it's gonna be about cleaning up. And I don't know. It's gonna be... We are we are in a situation... We are outmatched in many ways. Scott Galloway · 54:39 Have... I think we have actually been traditionally very good at propaganda, whether it's, you know, dropping leaflets from flying super fortresses over Berlin saying, if you surrender, we're not going to kill you. We're not weird, and your leader has already killed himself. And the CIA weaponizing newspapers The in Latin thing that America's going to have to come to grips with is we're used to bombing other countries. Yeah. And the idea of a foreign entity actually bombing us seems just so alien that we can't even relate to Kara Swisher · 55:09 it because the Cold War, they won this one. Scott Galloway · 55:11 Because we're used to being, you know, we're we're used to being the lead dog that we bark and everyone, you know, just quivers. And for the first time, I think one of the things, the great acceleration that COVID has brought on is that now China is the geopolitical superpower, and we're just not used to being played. We're not used to not being the one to call the shots. We're not used to someone else being better at propaganda. What's especially insulting and it's much easier to fool people than convince them they've been fooled. We are unwilling to acknowledge the insult and the embarrassment that the object of our affection, Facebook, has been weaponized by foreign actors. We just can't wrap our heads around it. It insults our manhood as Americans. But for the first time, we're I don't want to say we're getting a taste of our own medicine. Kara Swisher · 55:58 And we invented it. Scott Galloway · 55:59 That's right. We're the ones that Kara Swisher · 56:01 have been We're traditionally taking care this. Alright, Scott. Scott Galloway · 56:04 Sorry. This is going Kara Swisher · 56:05 in a bad direction. Scott Galloway · 56:06 We're going down a rabbit Kara Swisher · 56:07 You're right. You're correct. This is great. I love your A Com thing. I thought that was fascinating. I think you're I think it's a smart idea. One... Another smart idea. Commerce Acom. From Acom. It seems like the 18 prof g. Listen to me. You showed up on my Reddit the other day. That was creepy. — Predictions segment ends — Scott Galloway · 56:21 How'd that go? Good. How'd that go to ask me anything? Ask Kara everything. Again, another very exciting... That's hard to sell that as compelling. Ask me anything as if you haven't heard everything already. Kara Swisher · 56:32 You're just jealous of my fantasticness, which is gonna continue on, and you're just gonna have to live with it. But let me tell I'm gonna make a small prediction. So I traded in my Peloton and got a new one, right, which I got a really good deal on the trade in. So it wasn't very... It was surprisingly when I did all the math about going to SoulCycle or doing other... Or gyms or whatever. It's really quite... And and there's four people who use this thing, my... And my family, my two sons and and Amanda. So it's actually quite... It's not bad. It's not bad from a from a cost perspective, of what we used to spend on gyms, etcetera. Agreed. Let me just say, no one's catching them. This device, the new one that they did, is so much better than the last one. Scott Galloway · 57:12 Really? Kara Swisher · 57:12 So delightful, so beautifully designed. They have a swivel screen. Everything they improved on it from... Even how you plug it in because there was sort of a messy cable thing in the last one, they have improved every aspect of this thing that it's completely delightful. And I just wanna say kudos to them and good luck anybody competing with them because I think they're... They know how to do their bigness, I have to say. Scott Galloway · 57:35 So there's a backstory here. After we essentially said the same thing, you weighed in as the Peloton Uber consumer, and I said that there's just going to be an enormous transition of stakeholder value from the sweat industrial complex to the workout from home trend. Mhmm. The CEO of Equinox reached out to me and said, I appreciate you're a customer of Equinox, but you don't have it right, and we need to talk. So anyways, I'm doing a call with Kara Swisher · 57:58 Alright. Scott Galloway · 57:59 We need go back Equinox, and I'll tell you what I'll he says. Kara Swisher · 58:02 Fantastic. Because I gotta tell you just from... I am so delighted with this product. I am I am not often delighted with products, but I am delighted with this product. It's really... And the things they improved, just love it. I'm a fan. And I just have to say, I was I was products matter. How you make products matter. Anyway... Scott Galloway · 58:19 And they're vertical. Again, think Kara Swisher · 58:21 about this Peloton. I have nothing but like for them. I have nothing but like for them. And of Scott Galloway · 58:24 course market. They have their own retail. Do you know someone... I don't know if you did this, but someone in a nice... Some nice, young, attractive person that clearly spends a lot of time on a Peloton bike will come to your house in a Peloton branded van and assemble that. Kara Swisher · 58:36 Yeah. They did. Scott Galloway · 58:37 The world is going so vertical. It's just so interesting. Kara Swisher · 58:40 They absolutely did. And I have and I have to think And it was a good deal. I have to say once you zeroed on, they took away the old ones. It was so convenient. Scott Galloway · 58:47 Especially given how much more money you make than those heehaws down in West Virginia you call family. What are they riding? Schwinn bikes? Schwinn... What do they ride? What do you... You show up in your Peloton. You bring it with you. You're like, I own two of these. I own two of these. Kara Swisher · 59:02 I don't. Scott Galloway · 59:03 But I own two of these. Kara Swisher · 59:04 No swisher on a bike in West Virginia. Scott Galloway · 59:07 I own two of these bad boy. Have you see... Have you heard of Peloton? Peloton? I own two. I own dose. Kara Swisher · 59:12 Do not own two. I own one. I traded it in. Yeah. I'm economical, Scott. I'm an economical Are you kidding? I didn't have two. What do you think? I have friends who have two, though. Anyway, before we go, a reminder, we love your questions on this show. Sometimes we're interested Scott Galloway · 59:26 Rebecca work this hard. Kara Swisher · 59:27 Okay. Some things we're interested you think is being underreported in tech and business. Send us some some lovely listener questions. We love them. We think they're great. Email us at pivot@VoxMedia.com. Scott will answer anything. Ask Scott anything. Have you been invited on Reddit? No. You haven't. Not yet. Anyway asked me Scott Galloway · 59:42 anything two years ago. Kara Swisher · 59:44 We need another one. We need one together. We need one together. Scott Galloway · 59:46 I'm so 2008. You're so 2000 late. Kara Swisher · 59:49 You know what? You'll just see. Oh, that makes I have some really good interviews coming up on my thing. You're gonna like them a lot. Scott Galloway · 59:55 Yeah. There we go. Kara Swisher · 59:56 And you should listen... Just listen to the Gavin one. It's very substantive. Meet us out, Scott. Scott Galloway · 1:00:00 Today's show was produced by Rebecca Sonanas. Fernando Finite engineered this episode. Erica Anderson is Pivot's executive producer. Make sure you subscribe to the show on Apple Podcasts. If you're an Android user, check us out on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Please recommend our show. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Vox Media. We'll be back next week for a breakdown of all things tech and business. Kara Kara Swisher · 1:00:22 Yeah. Scott Galloway · 1:00:22 A com, algorithmic commerce. That's our thing. Kara Swisher · 1:00:26 People of West Virginia. Scott Galloway · 1:00:27 Good news. Own it. Bye. You dumb bitches with your Schwinn bikes. 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