Pivot · Nov 11, 2022

Crypto Chaos, Meta Layoffs, Musk Mania, and Guest Jonathan Haidt

Automatic transcript of the end of the episode, from 52:56. Speakers are labeled by software and may contain errors. Highlighted passages are Scott’s predictions.

Guest · 52:56 Like other mammals that pair bond, we have courtship rituals. And you need to sort of slow things down and show mutual... You know, you display your virtues and you display commitment, and then you fall in love. And then you have sex, the sex adds to the love. So that's the way... That's what we have in our heads. And it's a little different, obviously, in boys in boys and girls, men and women, but it's somewhat complementary. So that's what we evolved for. Now when everything moves on to the dating apps, now everything changes. Now it's much more of a straight market value calculation, and you have these incredibly precise signals from others about what the market value of this person is. So so it it puts everyone into this terrible market in which, you know, in general, young women have an advantage, but women over 35 for the rest of their lives are the market losers. But then even with young people, a few men... Women are so selective. I saw a study recently. They had men rate photos on on an app of women, and they gave a normal distribution. Most were in the middle. Some women are beautiful, some not. When they asked the women to rate, the women gave nobody a 10, and they said almost everyone is unattractive and only a few are attractive. Well, guess what? Those few who check the boxes for the women, they... All all the women want... All the women swipe right on them, and the other 90% of boys get nothing. So this fuels the sense that they're useless. They have no purpose in life. They're not... And so this is horrible for the boys. It's horrible for the girls. It's horrible for for courtship and dating. It's gonna be horrible for marriage. I think we're gonna see very little marriage and very little childbearing among Gen Z. Kara Swisher · 54:32 Yeah. My kids talk about that. It's really amazing because it feels like Portion polygamy. Scott Galloway · 54:37 Yeah. Yeah. I just remember a few years ago sitting in department meetings, and they would talk about how microaggressions would not be tolerated. And you were the first person that had the courage to say, well, what the fuck do you mean by that? Mhmm. You wrote what is the most read article in the history of The Atlantic. And I constantly parrot you. You know, we started all barking up the same tree in about the middle of the last decade, and as a result, America has become stupid. Yeah. Can you give us the cliff notes on that article? Guest · 55:08 Sure. So that was the coddling of the American mind. It began as an Atlantic article in 2015, and it was one of the top five most read at that time. And what I've come to see after that, it was describing a change in culture that happened first on campus. We couldn't understand it. Now in retrospect, we understand, you know, the college students were sort of the first into this new bizarre world. They were the first into Tumblr in particular, nurtured a lot of these ideas about microaggressions and safe spaces. So, so around 2013, 2014, they begin to bring those ideas into college, and people think it's just college. They'll have to grow up. They can't be doing this stuff when they go work at Goldman Sachs or Google. Well, guess what? Gen Z began to graduate from college in 2018. And now when I talk to people in business, they they say the same thing. It's very difficult to work with their Gen z... Of... You know? Look. Some of them are great. This is not about everyone. But people are noticing a big change between the millennials and Gen Z. And Gen Z is much more fragile, much higher rates of anxiety, depression. Much... And when we say fragile, it's because they'll take almost anything as an offense, and an offense is is actually danger or harm. And so we have this huge misunderstanding between generations. COVID made it so much worse because what Gen Z most needed... Scott, you've pointed this out a lot. How young people today, they haven't really worked in an office. They haven't gotten socialized into work culture. So they take the college culture and the coddling culture that we gave them. They bring it into the workplace. So, yeah, we're in trouble. Kara Swisher · 56:33 Yeah. One of the things that's interesting about that, I will push back a tiny bit on both of you, is that Please. If you grew up someone who was gay or something like that, it wasn't microaggressions. It was aggression aggression. And I think some of it is a reaction to that. Like, I'm not gonna take this shit anymore. And so I think that was a little bit of it. I think I really... After Elon did that thing on Paul Pelusi, I was furious. It brought me back right back to then. And I I don't think I overreacted. I was like, no. You will not be doing this anymore. Carrie, you're there. Let me finish. Don't worry about it. Okay. I love microaggressions because that's... This whole show is microaggressions since Scott and I. So... And and one of the things I always press with employees is, at one point, I... My producer for for On with Kara Swishen, but previous to that, she was with me at the New York Thunders Way, we're always arguing. And it seems like we're mad at each other, but we're not. It's called... And and so one of the Gen Z people are like, oh, this is very upsetting. I'm like, it's called editorial tension. Mhmm. We like each other. What are you talking about? Like... And it was really hard. Well, this upsets me. I was like, what? Like, Like, it was it was really interesting. So there's there's... Sometimes people have had it, I think, just so sick of, like, homo... I can't tolerate another homophocamore. I just can't. Scott Galloway · 57:41 I won't. Kara Swisher · 57:42 I, like, just won't. And I... I'm not being nice about it anymore. And so that's that's where I think that's where the break comes. Go ahead, Scott. Interrupt me. Scott Galloway · 57:49 No. I I wanna return to Jonathan because we're hijacking his time, but you're talking about a place. Everything you're upset about and you have... Your your anger is justified. But when you're talking about a university campus Kara Swisher · 58:04 Yeah. I Scott Galloway · 58:04 agree. You're talking about a place where people are so angry at the injustices that you outlined, they go on the hunt for what I call fake racists and fake bigots. Mhmm. And they they feel so angry at what's happened in other parts of the world. You know, we're talking about the most diverse and inclusive places on the planet. Kara Swisher · 58:21 They should be. Scott Galloway · 58:22 And and it's wonderful. But at the same time, we've decided, okay. Let's go after each other, and let's create a divisive environment on campus. I'm gonna pause there. Yeah. But but how Kara Swisher · 58:34 do you fix it, John? Why don't you talk about how you fix that? Because I think you do have to understand why people get like that. But how do you fix that? Guest · 58:41 First, very briefly. You know, I was born in 1963, and whether you look at civil rights, gay rights, whatever, this is... Yeah. I was born just after Martin Luther King gave his I have a dream speech. And in the hundred years... Because it's hundred years since the Emancipation Proclamation took effect. In the hundred years before that, not much progress was made. And in the fifty years after that, the most extraordinary progress was made. Decade by decade on every front that... When I turned 50 in 2013, gay marriage had just been legalized in many states, and it was about to be made the law of the land. And so whether you wanna look at gay rights, women's rights, animal rights, human rights, environment... I mean, that fifty years was the most extraordinary period of progress. So in 2014, progressives should have been saying, yay, America. Kara Swisher · 59:22 We won. Guest · 59:22 Whatever whatever we're doing, let's keep doing it. But instead what happened was everyone got online into our... In... On platforms that make you argue and and fill you with anger and hate and offense. And so I think the progressive left, which should have taken credit, instead went on the war path the way Scott said against microaggressions, which is very analogous to an autoimmune disorder. There's nothing left to attack. Let's attack each other. Now how do we fix it? So first, I don't think there's any fixing this until until we were... Changed social media dramatically. When the public square of the world's most important democracy takes place entirely in the Roman Colosseum with stands filled with with people who are cheering for blood. There is no democracy. There is no agreement. There is no compromise. So I I think we're we're headed down. We're headed for disaster unless we can radically Kara Swisher · 1:00:08 I would like to fix, John, before you go. Guest · 1:00:10 Okay. First thing is that one thing we do need government for is to raise the age to 16. This is a a common dilemma, and companies can't do it themselves or they'll lose all their market share to TikTok. So the government has to raise the age for so... For Internet adulthood to 16 and and enforce it. And there's all kinds of ways to do that. That's the first. The second is we've got to create spaces of trust, and, there are all kinds of ways to do that with authentication. Elon Musk has actually floated a few possibly good ideas. He probably won't deliver on them, but he is at least thinking about it. And I just had, drinks last night with Scott's new buddy, Noam Noam Barden Yeah. Who's come up with an alternative to Twitter, which is designed from the ground up to be a platform for creators and readers, not for advertisers focused on engagement. So I think we do need some government regulation to create a level playing field on which better platforms could compete. And then beyond that, I'm hopeful, that we'll get platforms that will take everyone away from Twitter, Instagram, and put them in healthier environments. Kara Swisher · 1:01:09 You like some of Elon's ideas, but how do you think he's performed thus far? It sounds like he's doing the same Roman emperor. I feel like I'm the gladiator. Guest · 1:01:17 Oh, yeah. I mean, it's... You know, I was just watching a little bit of, Idiocracy and the, you know, president there. Scott Galloway · 1:01:22 Oh, I love that. Guest · 1:01:22 Crazy. Everyone should watch Idiocracy. Yeah. Now Elon's obviously very smart, but he's behaving a bit like that. So I'm just saying, you know, he... Long ago, he said, I... You know, authenticate all humans. Like, yes. We need to do a lot more authentication. Yep. And then he recently tweeted something like, you should be able to, you know, choose your experience. And if you don't wanna be surrounded by assholes who who are anonymous and incentivized to be jerks, you should be able to to, you know, not... You know, to... So so he has some good ideas. I am hopeful that Kara Swisher · 1:01:47 can ideas, and most most of them are Scotts. They are. Guest · 1:01:51 So I think, look, if if, you know, if if there's either some market pressure or some friends take him aside and do an intervention on him, I think he is capable of producing a much better career. I don't know that he will. Scott Galloway · 1:02:01 Jonathan, we have kids that are same age. I have boys. Two You have a boy and a girl. What have you gotten right, and what have you gotten wrong around parenting looking back on it? Guest · 1:02:08 What my wife and I got right is, keeping a lid on the total amount of screen time, trying to push them out to do things with friends, encouraging them to to go out New York City at the age of nine or 10, which was way before others. But way after we went out when we were kids when it was much more dangerous. Okay. So we listened to Leonor Schenazy of... Who wrote free range of kids. I think that we really got right. Let's see. What did we get wrong? I wish we had found a summer camp for them long ago that they could go to every year and be there without devices out in nature with other kids. They Speaker · 1:02:40 love it. Guest · 1:02:41 So important, and we didn't do it. Scott Galloway · 1:02:42 Every year in Maine. Kids love it. Kara Swisher · 1:02:44 Really important. That's a really great thing. Also, you're very nice Scott Galloway · 1:02:47 to them. I'm sure both of Kara Swisher · 1:02:49 you are. Anyway, you're good dads. Anyway, Jonathan, thank you so much. People should really pay attention to what Jonathan's doing. It's reasonable. It's... We have to really start thinking about how we talk to each other in a lot of ways. You are on sixty minutes last Sunday. You can go to... What's the website? Guest · 1:03:03 If you go to jonathanhite.com/socialmedia, all of my work is there. Kara Swisher · 1:03:09 Okay. And, of course, read the Coddling of America Mind and wonderful books. Guest · 1:03:13 Well, thank you, Kara. Thank you, Scott. Please continue with your microaggressions. Scott Galloway · 1:03:16 Thanks for your good work, Jonathan. Kara Swisher · 1:03:17 I love your title. Scott doesn't have a fancy title at NYU like you do, but... Okay. Guest · 1:03:22 Well, he's not he's not an ethical leader. What can I say? Scott Galloway · 1:03:24 There you go. Exactly. Jonathan. — Predictions segment begins — Kara Swisher · 1:03:27 Gosh. I like that guy. I think he's so smart. Alright, Scott. One more quick break. We'll be back for predictions. Okay, Scott. Let's hear a prediction. Scott Galloway · 1:03:44 We're gonna find out in the next twelve months, that the fraud that has taken place behind the scenes with a lack of visibility and a lack of regulation around crypto is gonna be, second only to... I think it's gonna be greater. It'll be greater in terms of criminal prosecutions. So think about the subprime crisis as it took down the economy, but no one went to jail. No one went to jail. This will be different. I think people will go to jail, but it won't take down the economy. I think we're gonna find out so much shit went down here, Kara. Mhmm. So many big VCs, so many people, there was so much over levering of assets without disclosure, run on the bank. I mean, it just feels to me that everything I read about this, the more you peel the onion back, the more incentives were around levering other... Putting your... Putting putting massive risk where you would take the upside, and the downside was borne by your depositors on these exchanges. I think you're gonna see the majority of these exchanges, including Coinbase, also including Binance, I think you're going see them go away or be severely impaired. This trustless system with middlemen that offer higher fees but no trust and no backing, it's the perfect storm of expensive but bad on every level. Kara Swisher · 1:05:04 I like that criminal but not affect the economy. I think you're right. I think you're a 100% right. One more prediction. I predict great things for Ami Kozak. He's a comedian. And this week, he posted a video to Instagram called how Scott Galloway orders at Starbucks. Let's play it. — Predictions segment ends — Scott Galloway · 1:05:19 Oh god. Here we go. Speaker · 1:05:20 Hello. Welcome to Starbucks. What can I get you? Well, I can tell you this. The amount of young men that come into a Starbucks within the ages of 18 and 30 haven't had sex within the last year. They're trying to order all sorts of things, they're presented with a barrage of choices between expresses, cappuccinos, lattes, a double espresso, soy lattes, and that choice and that paradox is causing immense anxiety and a lack of understanding and gratitude and perspective. The kind of coffee I'd like to order is something I'd like to order in person. I don't do it over a remote phone. I don't do it using an app. I do it coming in in person to establish human connection, and I talk to a stranger like yourself to order that coffee, and I'm gonna do that right now. And I think that's a prime example of how young men, particularly between the ages of 18 and 30, can establish better connections, better results, and a better future going forward because we are in a crisis right now. So a latte? Sure. Kara Swisher · 1:06:06 That made my life. Welcome to my life. Scott Galloway · 1:06:09 That made my day. He's a haunted... So he used an app to made him bald. He's actually a haunted Speaker · 1:06:14 kid. Oh, wow. Scott Galloway · 1:06:15 Look at him. He's actually got this amazing mane of hair. Kara Swisher · 1:06:17 He's Ami is on Instagram at Ami Kozak underscore official. Scott Galloway · 1:06:22 Yeah. Made my day. That was wonderful. Thank you for bringing that up. Kara Swisher · 1:06:26 We love you. We love you. We loved it. It was great. I predict great things for you. Anyway, we wanna hear from you. Send us your questions about business tech or whatever's on your mind. Go to nymag.com/pivot to submit a question for the show or call 85551 Okay, Scott. That's the show. We'll be back on Friday for more. I'm sure a lot more things are happening. Scott Galloway · 1:06:46 What do you got planned for the rest of the week, Kara? Kara Swisher · 1:06:48 And then it's Saul's first birthday. Scott Galloway · 1:06:50 Oh, that's nice. Kara Swisher · 1:06:51 Saul. Jolly Saul. We're having a So party for I'm very excited. All my kids are jolly these days. I just love them. They're Scott Galloway · 1:06:58 so There you go. Alright. Alright. Kara Swisher · 1:06:59 Happy birthday, Saul. I'm excited for the present that Scott's gonna send, you know, an expensive overall present. No. He's not. He's been very generous to us when we go to New York, etcetera, and we appreciate it. Anyway, happy birthday, Saul. Scott, read us out. Scott Galloway · 1:07:13 Today's show is produced by Lara Naiman, Evan Engel, and Taylor Griffin. Ernie Interdot engineered this episode. Thanks also to Drew Burrows and Miel Silberio. Make sure you subscribe to the show wherever you listen to podcasts. Thanks for listening to Pivot from New York Magazine and Box Media. We'll be back later this week for another breakdown of all things tech and business. This was a peaceful transfer of power. America's wonderful democracy. This was a... I think this was a a nice day. Congratulations to America. Well, we'll see. Kara Swisher · 1:07:41 We haven't wiped the barnacle. This is Lauren Boebert off of Colorado, Scott Galloway · 1:07:44 but it looks... It's looking good. We'll see. Wipe the barnacle. You're barnacle. You're good. Barnacle. Kara Swisher · 1:07:48 No problem. Barnacle.